New First Presidency announced (Oaks, Eyring, Christofferson)

[MG 2.0]

Should [President Oaks] not be able to start his time as Prophet/President with a clean slate rather than being smeared or misinterpreted from the get go?

But then of course [the Catholic Church] does not enjoy the benefit of direct divine guidance.

I dunno, isn't that what the black and/or white smoke is for?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Should [President Oaks] not be able to start his time as Prophet/President with a clean slate rather than being smeared or misinterpreted from the get go?

Since he has served in a number of high positions in the CoJCoLDS for many years, I think it would be unreasonable to expect people not to base their opinion of his character and their future expectations of his actions on what they have seen of him so far...

Agreed. Apparently, the LDS magazine is aware of this already.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... ly_in_the/

[Bond]

Surprised they didn't just up Bednar now. All three of these guys look weak as hell.

[huckelberry]

But then of course [the Catholic Church] does not enjoy the benefit of direct divine guidance.

I dunno, isn't that what the black and/or white smoke is for?

Regards,
MG

MG ,I find myself puzzled by your comment about smoke
It is an announcement about the election. Election has been the process from way way back. God is understood to inspire in that process but that would be working with human choice. A person might wonder why LDS do not like elections or choice.

[malkie]

I dunno, isn't that what the black and/or white smoke is for?

Regards,
MG

MG ,I find myself puzzled by your comment about smoke
It is an announcement about the election. Election has been the process from way way back. God is understood to inspire in that process but that would be working with human choice. A person might wonder why LDS do not like elections or choice.

I've wondered about that, huckelberry. In spite of all of the talk by members about how the leaders are only human and fallible, I suspect that anything other than swift unanimity could be a cause for concern among the members.

[sock puppet]

And now, a Mormon history flashback to 1903 and the U.S. Senate hearings on whether to seat senator-elect Reed Smoot from Utah amidst concerns he was a polygamist, in violation of federal law. Joseph F. Smith, then president/prophet of the LDS Church in Utah and son of Hyrum Smith, testifying under oath as follows:

Mr. Worthington. Then you succeeded [Lorenzo Snow]?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Worthington. I wish you would explain a little more fully than you have about this matter of promotion--how it was you came to take the place of Lorenzo Snow. I think you have told us there has been a custom, at least, of promotion.
Mr. Smith. It has been the custom, since the death of Joseph Smith that the president of the twelve succeeded to the presidency of the church.
Mr. Worthington. That has been from the beginning--that has been a rule that has been followed?
Mr. Smith. It was the case with Brigham Young and his successors.
Mr. Worthington. How is the apostle who becomes president of that quorum selected? Is that by selection or seniority, or how?
Mr. Smith. It is by seniority.
Mr. Worthington. So that the last apostle takes the foot of the list?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Worthington. And as vacancies occur he moves up?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Worthington. Has there, so far as you know, from the beginning been any other rule followed?
Mr. Smith. No.
Mr. Worthington. Or has that been universally followed?
Mr. Smith. That has been universally followed.
Mr. Worthington. So that all the rewards that have come in that way have been by simply following the custom of the church?
Mr. Smith. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Worthington. I undnerstand you to say, however, that there is no law--no revelation or command--of the church in any way which requires that.
Mr. Smith. No; it is just a simple custom.
P. 205

Senator Dubois. Have you received any revelation from God, which has been submitted by you and the apostles to the body of the church in their semiannual conference, which revelation has been sustained by that conference through the upholding of their hands?
Mr. Smith. Since when?
Senator Dubois. Since you became president of the church.
Mr. Smith. No, sir; none whatever.
* * *
Senator Dubois: Have you received any individual revelations yourself, since you became president of the church under your own definition, even, of a revelation?
Mr. Smith. I can not say that I have. {Smith had been the "prophet" for 18 months at that point in time when testifying.]
P.248

Senator Bailey. I do not refer to the councilors. You have already said that the president chooses or designates them. Who chooses or elects the president? For instance, who elected you to your present position?
Mr. Smith. I was nominated by the twelve apostles and submitted to the whole church and sustained by the whole church.
Senator Bailey. Explain what you mean by the word "sustained" in that technical sense.
Mr. Smith. That is, voted upon.
Senator Bailey. I understand that. As a matter of fact, the apostles nominate the president and the church elects him. Do I understand that to be the case?
Mr. Smith. Well, yes, sir; that has been the case. And then, again, the senior apostle, through custom of the church since the death of Joseph Smith, has been recognized on the death of the president as the legitimate successor to the president.
Senator Bailey. It is a question of succession rather than election?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Bailey. Has that the force of law?
Mr. Smith. Still, he is eleted, just the same.
Senator Bailey. Has that the force of law or has it merely the persuasion of custom?
Mr. Smith. Merely a custom. There is no law in relation to it. It does not of necessity follow that the senior apostle would be or should be chosen as the president of the church.
P. 65

Senator McComas. I should like to ask one question. You say that the councilors are appointed by the president of the church. How are the apostles selected?
Mr. Smith. In the first place they were chosen by revelation. The council of the apostles have had a voice ever since in the selection of their successors.
Senator McComas. Had a voice?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator McComas. Revelations to whom?
Mr. Smith. To Joseph Smith.
Senator McComas. And the twelve apostles were then first named?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator McComas. When vacancies occurred thereafter, by what body were the vacancies in the twelve apostles filled?
Mr. Smith. Perhaps I may say it this way: Chosen by the body, the twelve themselves, by and with the consent and approval of the first presidency.
Senator Hoar. Was there a revelation in regard to each of them?
Mr. Smith. No, sir; not in regard to each of them. Do you mean in the beginning?
Senator Hoar. I understand you to say that the original twelve apostles were selected by revelation?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Hoar. Through Joseph Smith?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; that is right.
Senator Hoar. Is there any revelation in regard to the subsequent ones?
Mr. Smith. No, sir; it has been the choice of the body.
Senator McComas. Then the apostles are perpetuated in succession by their own act and the appproval of the first presidency?
Mr. Smith. That is right.
P. 65

Testimony of President Joseph F. Smith of the Mormon Church and Senator Reed Smoot ("Testimony of Important Witnesses as given in the Proceedings before the Committee on Privileges and Elections of the United States Senate in the matter of the Protest Against the Right of Hon. Reed Smoot, a Senator from the State of Utah, to Hold his Seat."), Salt Lake Tribune Publishing Company, Salt Lake City, 1905

[MG 2.0]

I dunno, isn't that what the black and/or white smoke is for?

Regards,
MG

MG ,I find myself puzzled by your comment about smoke
It is an announcement about the election. Election has been the process from way way back. God is understood to inspire in that process but that would be working with human choice. A person might wonder why LDS do not like elections or choice.

I would assume that as the College of Cardinals gather to choose a new Pope they seek for divine inspiration along with their own human impulse/judgement. They then announce their choice in the traditional way that they have done so for hundreds of years.

I have nothing against the election process.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

And as an aside in your Mormon History Minute,

Mr. Worthington. Then, do I understand that the fact is that only president, the head of the church, is or ever has been authorized to receive revelations for the church, which constitute the law of the church?
Mr. Smith. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Worthington. You say there have been a number of revelations received which have never been bound up with the Doctrine and Covenants?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Worthington. Have they been printed and distributed at all?
Mr. Smith. Yes; they were printed in brochure form--that is, in pamphlet form--and of course are kept in our book department of the Deseret News, for sale to anybody who wants them, just the same as the book of Doctrine and Covenants, or any other book is held.
Mr. Worthington. The same as the manifesto?
Mr. Smith. The same as the manifesto; yes.
Mr. Worthington. What was the last revelation that came to the church from the one authorized to give it as the law of the church?
Mr. Smith. Well, according to my best recollection it must have been about 1882. The purport of the revelation was calling to the apostolate or apostleship two men, who are named in the revelation.
Mr. Worthington. Who was the president through whom that revelation came?
Mr. Smith. President John Taylor.
Mr. Worthington. You say that was the last one?
Mr. Smith. I do not now recall any since then except the manifesto. [None through WIlford Woodruff, and only the Manifesto through Lorenzo Snow--so tithing from Snow was NOT, per Joseph F. Smith, a revelation.]
Mr. Worthington. Except the manifesto?
Mr. Smith. Yes, except the manifesto.
Mr. Worthington. Then do I understand you to say the only revelation that has come to the church in the last twenty years is the one that says polygamy shall stop?
Mr. Smith. Since 1882?
Mr. Worthington. Yes, since 1882--twenty-one years.
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; I think so.

P. 164-65

Testimony of President Joseph F. Smith of the Mormon Church and Senator Reed Smoot ("Testimony of Important Witnesses as given in the Proceedings before the Committee on Privileges and Elections of the United States Senate in the matter of the Protest Against the Right of Hon. Reed Smoot, a Senator from the State of Utah, to Hold his Seat."), Salt Lake Tribune Publishing Company, Salt Lake City, 1905

[bill4long]

College of Cardinals ...
I have nothing against the election process.

But the black/white smoke from the chimney is contributing to climate change and thus the destruction of the planet and all humanity.

What would Jesus do?!

[MG 2.0]

MG ,I find myself puzzled by your comment about smoke
It is an announcement about the election. Election has been the process from way way back. God is understood to inspire in that process but that would be working with human choice. A person might wonder why LDS do not like elections or choice.

I've wondered about that, huckelberry. In spite of all of the talk by members about how the leaders are only human and fallible, I suspect that anything other than swift unanimity could be a cause for concern among the members.

All is well.

Regards,
MG