The First Feebles

[Morley]

So, nothing.


Was it PerplexityAI this time, or are you dipping your bucket in other wells?

That's a rather clean punchline. The thing is, "nothing" only holds if the value of a worldview is measured only by what is empirically distinct or externally demonstrable. For example, the "rhythm of living" I mentioned is not "nothing" It's just not the kind of 'something' that fits into your conceptual framework of what is or isn't important/meaningful.

Scaffolding/framework of meaning DOES matter even if it is made from metaphysical timber along with other elements which act as 'evidence'.

If the only acceptable answer to your question of how my life is "better" is a demonstrable advantage, something empirically better, then you’re asking faith to play a game it never claimed to win.

Faith isn’t a trophy, it’s a compass. It points one towards Christ and the path back to Heavenly Father.

Regards,
MG

So, PerplexityAI.

[Gadianton]

I think Gad lives well; I imagine drumdude does, too. As far as I know, none really shares your faith. How do you imagine your life is better than theirs or mine?

Well, if drumdude and I don't count, certainly the leaders of the Republican Party of which he's a member live very well and they don't believe in God.

But seriously, I think we need to be cautious for a couple reasons. The first is that I fully admit that living a life of faith can have advantages. There are so many possibilities of lives. The main reason is that faith tradition is the default. if you're 4th generation Catholic, then you've got a blueprint that more or less works. Scrapping that and taking a chance with something else could lead to new kinds of problems and lack family network. If I compare myself to a sibling who is enough like me to compare, I'd say he's done better over all while firmly in the Church (while totally avoiding MAGA thankfully), and I think a good case can be made had I remained "faithful" I would have avoided some challenges I'd rather have avoided. Of course, we need to assume I'd have just gone along with the beliefs and put my curiosity elsewhere. I would certainly rather be living my life than his, but I do think a case can be made his life is objectively better, and I think the choice to stay within the confines of the beaten path is a major contributing factor. So for Dan and others, to the extent the claim is true, it's largely for different reasons than they think.

But we also must be careful about taking this specious claim from our believers too seriously. Because if I recall, the scriptures speak of losing everything in this life including family for the sake of the Lord. The Book of Mormon no doubt has its prosperity angle, but those parts are glossed over as narrative summary, while lonely lives of prophets experiencing great trials make for the real story. Remember all those Sacrament meeting talks taking up "The fate of the 12 apostles?" Didn't sound like they had great lives full of swimming pools, family, and bbqs like MG experiences. Crucified upside down? Hey, what a great life faith gets you there, doesn't it! MG won't even go on a senior mission!

One of the guys from my mission had quite a powerful story. He came from an extremely conservative Christian sect. He rebelled, began smoking, and quit going to church and had a negative attitude. The missionaries tracted him out. He felt something. He converted pretty fast. He cleaned up his act, but joining the Church got him kicked out of his house and cut off from his family for "joining a cult". He went on a mission, and like 6 months into his mission he made AP, that's how driven he was. In a different context, the MG's of the world will crow about stories like this, and how the Lord moves people. But this guy possibly lost his family for the rest of his life, or at least, it will never be like it was. So which is it? Is the life of faith one of sacrifice, or is it prosperity?

Allow me to answer. If you're life is hard, then faith means sacrifice, so the Church is right; if your life is easy, then faith means prosperity, so the Church is right.

[MG 2.0]

I think Gad lives well; I imagine drumdude does, too. As far as I know, none really shares your faith. How do you imagine your life is better than theirs or mine?

Well, if drumdude and I don't count, certainly the leaders of the Republican Party of which he's a member live very well and they don't believe in God.

But seriously, I think we need to be cautious for a couple reasons. The first is that I fully admit that living a life of faith can have advantages. There are so many possibilities of lives. The main reason is that faith tradition is the default. if you're 4th generation Catholic, then you've got a blueprint that more or less works. Scrapping that and taking a chance with something else could lead to new kinds of problems and lack family network. If I compare myself to a sibling who is enough like me to compare, I'd say he's done better over all while firmly in the Church (while totally avoiding MAGA thankfully), and I think a good case can be made had I remained "faithful" I would have avoided some challenges I'd rather have avoided. Of course, we need to assume I'd have just gone along with the beliefs and put my curiosity elsewhere. I would certainly rather be living my life than his, but I do think a case can be made his life is objectively better, and I think the choice to stay within the confines of the beaten path is a major contributing factor. So for Dan and others, to the extent the claim is true, it's largely for different reasons than they think.

But we also must be careful about taking this specious claim from our believers too seriously. Because if I recall, the scriptures speak of losing everything in this life including family for the sake of the Lord. The Book of Mormon no doubt has its prosperity angle, but those parts are glossed over as narrative summary, while lonely lives of prophets experiencing great trials make for the real story. Remember all those Sacrament meeting talks taking up "The fate of the 12 apostles?" Didn't sound like they had great lives full of swimming pools, family, and bbqs like MG experiences. Crucified upside down? Hey, what a great life faith gets you there, doesn't it! MG won't even go on a senior mission!

One of the guys from my mission had quite a powerful story. He came from an extremely conservative Christian sect. He rebelled, began smoking, and quit going to church and had a negative attitude. The missionaries tracted him out. He felt something. He converted pretty fast. He cleaned up his act, but joining the Church got him kicked out of his house and cut off from his family for "joining a cult". He went on a mission, and like 6 months into his mission he made AP, that's how driven he was. In a different context, the MG's of the world will crow about stories like this, and how the Lord moves people. But this guy possibly lost his family for the rest of his life, or at least, it will never be like it was. So which is it? Is the life of faith one of sacrifice, or is it prosperity?

Allow me to answer. If you're life is hard, then faith means sacrifice, so the Church is right; if your life is easy, then faith means prosperity, so the Church is right.

We risk flattening the complexity if we reduce faith to either prosperity or sacrifice. The scriptures do speak of losing everything, and they also speak of being blessed. Maybe the tension isn’t a bug. It’s the/a feature.

Faith is a double-edged sword that cuts through complacency but also can leave scars. Comes back to the opposition in ALL things concept that seems to pop up everywhere.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

But seriously, I think we need to be cautious for a couple reasons. The first is that I fully admit that living a life of faith can have advantages. There are so many possibilities of lives. The main reason is that faith tradition is the default. if you're 4th generation Catholic, then you've got a blueprint that more or less works. Scrapping that and taking a chance with something else could lead to new kinds of problems and lack family network.

This rings true.

Most of my family is Catholic - I was baptized Catholic, but no longer accord with most of the aspects of dogma.

I’d best describe my departure from the Catholic faith as “self-excommunication,” but it matters little to me in the eyes of Church leadership.

It hasn’t affected my family associations to great extent. We will discuss things like “papal infallibility,” “ex-cathedra,” or “indulgences,” but it doesn’t seem the same as when an LDS member leaves the fold.

The difference is the impact on family dynamics, I suppose. There is no “families are forever” in Catholic doctrine.

[Gadianton]

We risk flattening the complexity if we reduce faith to either prosperity or sacrifice. The scriptures do speak of losing everything, and they also speak of being blessed. Maybe the tension isn’t a bug. It’s the/a feature.

Well then, Perplexity MG, maybe you'll quit using how good your life seems to be as evidence that the Church is the baby?

[malkie]

But seriously, I think we need to be cautious for a couple reasons. The first is that I fully admit that living a life of faith can have advantages. There are so many possibilities of lives. The main reason is that faith tradition is the default. if you're 4th generation Catholic, then you've got a blueprint that more or less works. Scrapping that and taking a chance with something else could lead to new kinds of problems and lack family network.

This rings true.

Most of my family is Catholic - I was baptized Catholic, but no longer accord with most of the aspects of dogma.

I’d best describe my departure from the Catholic faith as “self-excommunication,” but it matters little to me in the eyes of Church leadership.

It hasn’t affected my family associations to great extent. We will discuss things like “papal infallibility,” “ex-cathedra,” or “indulgences,” but it doesn’t seem the same as when an LDS member leaves the fold.

The difference is the impact on family dynamics, I suppose. There is no “families are forever” in Catholic doctrine.

I knew someone in Scotland whose family was strongly Catholic. When he joined the Mormon church they held a requiem mass for him.

[Morley]

Allow me to answer. If you're life is hard, then faith means sacrifice, so the Church is right; if your life is easy, then faith means prosperity, so the Church is right.

Exactly. There's no difference in the lives of those who 'choose' faith and those who supposedly run from it. There are no 'blessings.'

Personally, I've come to doubt if there is even such a thing as faith. Relying on so-called faith as an explanation for the 'why of things' is a lazy way out to avoid thinking about those same things. It's a way to hold onto beliefs that make no sense anymore.

What does faith consist of? I can't tell. I'm not sure that anyone else really does either. When MG bears his testimony, he has to rely on Perplexity to help him find some words that make any kind of sense.

I'm not seeing that people of faith are living better lives, are more generous, pet puppies more often, or are functioning on any higher plane of moral or intellectual existence. They don't seem to be happier, or richer, or to be winning more Pulitzer Prizes. If that's the case, what's the purpose--other than to justify your belief in an afterlife or in The Garden of Eden?



multiple edits: spelling & grammar

[malkie]

Allow me to answer. If you're life is hard, then faith means sacrifice, so the Church is right; if your life is easy, then faith means prosperity, so the Church is right.

Exactly. There's no difference in the lives of those who 'choose' faith and those who supposedly run from it. There are no 'blessings.'

Personally, I've come to doubt if there is even such a thing as faith. Relying on so-called faith as an explanation for the 'why of things' is a lazy way out to avoid thinking about those same things. It's a way to hold onto beliefs that make no sense anymore.

What does faith consist of? I can't tell. I'm not sure that anyone else really does either. When MG bears his testimony, he has to rely on Perplexity to help him find some words that make any kind of sense.

I'm not seeing that people of faith are living better lives, are more generous, pet puppies more often, or are functioning on any higher plane of moral or intellectual existence. They don't seem to be happier, or richer, or to be winning more Politzer Prizes. What's the purpose, other than to justify your belief in an afterlife or in The Garden of Eden?

Earlier in this thread, MG asked:

I think that the condescension you're picking up on is just a reflection of that same attitude that you're handing out. When others point it out to you, you revert to your "you're making a mountain out of a molehill" routine, and continue in your ways.

On to your other point: What does your faith get you that I, presumedly without said faith, am missing out on?

Or in malkie's words:

How is your life better than his? I'm asking sincerely.

At times when I say that certain posters create a mountain out of a molehill, I truly believe that. I don't believe I'm being condescending when I'm doing so.

You end your post by asking a question. I think that it would actually be interesting to ask malkie that question if he is willing to answer it. You probably already know essentially what I would say.

Malkie?

Regards,
MG

I didn't answer, because I saw no point in getting into a pissing match with MG. I've met MG in real life, about 10 years ago. I'm fairly certain that in many ways his life is "better" than mine.

Materially he is almost certainly better off than I.
I'd be surprised if his extended family is not more close and cohesive than mine.
He may well be happier with his life.
He would likely not be happy to trade his life for mine.

But so what? Is it because of our different "spiritual" views, or "faith"? There's no reason to think that.

Here's a little true story about faith.

A few decades ago in my ward there was a young married guy who had been diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer. The ward fasted and prayed for him, and the tumour shrank - he went into remission, and everyone was commenting on how great the guy's faith was, and that of his family.

Wonderful - right?

Sitting in the congregation was a widow whose husband had died a few months earlier from cancer. The ward had fasted and prayed for him too. While I'm sure that she was happy for the family of the guy with brain cancer, what message was she to take from the rejoicing over the faith that had, apparently, led to that healing?

[Gadianton]

Personally, I've come to doubt if there is even such a thing as faith. Relying on so-called faith as an explanation for the 'why of things' is a lazy way out to avoid thinking about those same things.

I agree that the word is meaningless. If I'm sitting in a Mormon Chapel believing all that I hear, neither looking left nor right, then how great is my faith. If I'm sitting in a Catholic Church believing all that I hear with an eye single to the message of the Cardinal, then I'm bound to the foolish traditions of my fathers. If I question the Church and inquire seriously about another religion, then it's a faith crisis. If I'm Catholic and question the Pope and talk to the Mormon missionaries, it's a triumph of faith.

[Marcus]

I think Gad lives well; I imagine drumdude does, too. As far as I know, none really shares your faith. How do you imagine your life is better than theirs or mine?

Well, if drumdude and I don't count, certainly the leaders of the Republican Party of which he's a member live very well and they don't believe in God.

But seriously, I think we need to be cautious for a couple reasons. The first is that I fully admit that living a life of faith can have advantages. There are so many possibilities of lives...

Not for women. In particular, living a life of faith as a Mormon woman has significant disadvantages. Just tolerating the sexism and the sexist expectations takes a huge toll, and working around them to be yourself anyway risks having that supportive family network you mentioned disappear, or worse, actively network against you. I suppose it depends on the type of family network you're working with, but in my opinion, the stronger the 'Mormon' part of faith, the more likely the sexism is there.