Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

[malkie]

The eight said that the plates were of ancient, curious workmanship, but none was qualified in any way to attest to their ancient nature.

That is true. There statement was testimonial rather than technical. It sort of comes down to whether or not they were considered to be honest, consistent, and never recanted that testimony. Including the other three beyond the eight.

Regards,
MG

Since you quoted and commented on only a small part of my comment, should I assume that, at the very least, you have no wish to challenge the rest?

[Limnor]

I understand that angels and plates are a nonstarter for unbelievers.

I’d be open to the idea that angels could appear to people, but the message would have to be internally consistent.

Joseph’s revelations, however, repeatedly contradict themselves. As discussed, his earliest “First Vision” mentions one divine being, later versions add a second; his method of translation shifts from reading from gold plates to using a seer stone in a hat; priesthood visitations appear only in later retellings; and his concept of God evolves from one eternal being to a hierarchy of deified men.

And even setting theology aside, the external evidence doesn’t hold up. There’s no DNA or archaeological support for ancient Nephite civilizations, no verified artifacts, and linguistic or metallurgical data that match a 19th-century rather than ancient American context.

[Limnor]

That is true. There statement was testimonial rather than technical. It sort of comes down to whether or not they were considered to be honest, consistent, and never recanted that testimony. Including the other three beyond the eight.

Sure, they may have been honest and consistent, but honesty and consistency don’t tell us what they actually saw.

They could have been entirely truthful in describing what looked to them like plates, yet mistaken about their nature.

I’ll go back to the copper printing plates again. They could sincerely report “seeing plates that appeared gold” without lying. The point isn’t whether they recanted; it’s whether their description matched physical reality.

[Gadianton]

Thanks Huck.

This shift from a “book” to “plates” bears out within the Book of Mormon itself, the transition from book to plates can be traced linguistically.

Recall that Emma’s experience describes a book, not metal: a bound, covered object that rustled like paper and was kept beneath a cloth. By contrast, the later witnesses describe plates.

The earliest narrative core (Mosiah–Moroni) speaks of records and books (“the record of Zeniff,” “the book of Ether,” “this record”), while the later insertions—1 Nephi through Words of Mormon—recast those books as engraved plates.

The seam between Words of Mormon 1:3–6 and 1 Nephi 19:1 marks the textual moment when the Book of Mormon’s “record” turns into “plates.”

In Words of Mormon, the narrator speaks as an editor: he abridges, searches, and chooses among pre-existing records, handling texts already “delivered into [his] hands.” The verbs belong to compilation, not creation.

But in 1 Nephi 19:1, the vocabulary shifts decisively: Nephi makes plates.

This change in diction—from editorial verbs like abridge and write to ones like make and engrave—signals a distinct change from finished “records” into “plates.”

Within my allegorical thesis, in which Joseph usurps Rigdon by writing himself into the book, that shift is supported here.

No longer is Joseph simply “finding a book,” he has created his own abridgment and used copper printing plates as a performative act to solidify his role.

This is absolutely fascinating. What was the stimulus to move from a 'record' to plates?

[Limnor]

This is absolutely fascinating. What was the stimulus to move from a 'record' to plates?

I think it was a spontaneous idea come upon when Oliver visited the Grandin printing shop, but there is no evidence aside from that inferred from the text.

The “plates” concept could have aligned to the “lost 116 pages” and predated Oliver’s arrival (per the official story, he joined in April 1829).

It by “stimulus” you mean “motive,” it provides Joseph an opportunity to demonstrate, physically, that he found something unique, and added to his usurpation.

I believe the lost 116 pages included some sort of veiled reference to Rigdon as the prophesied “seer to come.”

I’m still working on this idea.

Edited to add brief motive description

[MG 2.0]

That is true. There statement was testimonial rather than technical. It sort of comes down to whether or not they were considered to be honest, consistent, and never recanted that testimony. Including the other three beyond the eight.

Sure, they may have been honest and consistent, but honesty and consistency don’t tell us what they actually saw.

They could have been entirely truthful in describing what looked to them like plates, yet mistaken about their nature.

I’ll go back to the copper printing plates again. They could sincerely report “seeing plates that appeared gold” without lying. The point isn’t whether they recanted; it’s whether their description matched physical reality.

This sounds a bit weak. You seem to be saying not only that the witnesses may not have had the technical training to know if the plates were ancient vs. modern...but that that witnesses were basically dupes and unaware of the difference between old and new. That's a real stretch, isn't it?

What I see you and malkie doing is being open to the possibility that there were actual plates but simply trying to explain them away as something of an artifice to dupe ignorant men.

I think we ought to give these guys a bit more credit. You are basically giving them no credit at all.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

there were actual plates but simply trying to explain them away as something of an artifice to dupe ignorant men.

I think we ought to give these guys a bit more credit. You are basically giving them no credit at all.

I’ll ask you to recall that I believe they were in on it, albeit through blackmail.

So this gave them the opportunity to “tell the truth” about what they saw, to dupe other ignorant men.

[Limnor]

What I see you and malkie doing is being open to the possibility that there were actual plates but simply trying to explain them away as something of an artifice to dupe ignorant men.

This is almost exactly right, MG.

[Gadianton]

The greatest barrier to your theory that I can think of offhand, and I'm not a good student of Mormon history I admit, can be summarized by this quote from our dear Reverend:

The Book of Mormon starts off as a treasure that he and other treasure seers were looking for. The translation springs out of that, and it cannot be divorced from it. He had first to convince others that he recovered the plates. Then he eventually commits to translating them himself. Knowing that this all originated in a ruse, we should instead think it would have been strange for him to do other than he did.

[Limnor]

The greatest barrier to your theory that I can think of offhand, and I'm not a good student of Mormon history I admit, can be summarized by this quote from our dear Reverend:

The Book of Mormon starts off as a treasure that he and other treasure seers were looking for. The translation springs out of that, and it cannot be divorced from it. He had first to convince others that he recovered the plates. Then he eventually commits to translating them himself. Knowing that this all originated in a ruse, we should instead think it would have been strange for him to do other than he did.

I think this point of view boils down to whether he “acted alone.” My theory relies upon inferential evidence from within the book itself that there was a group involved.

I do think that he believed the stones he had could result in monetary gain in treasure seeking, but I believe he eventually realized more gain to be had through a combination.