A Covenant People

[malkie]

I'm confused.

I thought that transactional obedience was by definition not obedience motivated by love and devotion. Perhaps in some ways the direct opposite of obedience motivated by love and devotion.

Transaction or True Love?

Am I missing some subtlety - do I need to read further?

[I Have Questions]

Transactional obedience should be motivated by love and devotion...and knowledge.

Regards,
MG

No. Transactional obedience is carrot & stick. If you do X for me, I’ll give you Y. If you don’t give me X, you’ll be penalised by Z. That’s the nature of SLC LDS Church covenants. Now ask yourself, is your love for your children equally transactional? If it isn’t, then you aren’t following the pattern your God is setting you. If it is, well you’re really not the unconditionally loving parent your children deserve to have.

[Res Ipsa]

Still not an answer to the question I asked.

[MG 2.0]

I'm confused.

I thought that transactional obedience was by definition not obedience motivated by love and devotion. Perhaps in some ways the direct opposite of obedience motivated by love and devotion.

Transaction or True Love?

Am I missing some subtlety - do I need to read further?

Transactional obedience, or covenants are a pathway to transformation, not simply or just a "reward". A structured framework that leads towards spiritual growth and relationship with God.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

I'm confused.

I thought that transactional obedience was by definition not obedience motivated by love and devotion. Perhaps in some ways the direct opposite of obedience motivated by love and devotion.

Transaction or True Love?

Am I missing some subtlety - do I need to read further?

Transactional obedience, or covenants are a pathway to transformation, not simply or just a "reward". A structured framework that leads towards spiritual growth and relationship with God.

Regards,
MG

So the beatings do stop when morale improves?

[Res Ipsa]

I'm confused.

I thought that transactional obedience was by definition not obedience motivated by love and devotion. Perhaps in some ways the direct opposite of obedience motivated by love and devotion.

Transaction or True Love?

Am I missing some subtlety - do I need to read further?

Transactional obedience, or covenants are a pathway to transformation, not simply or just a "reward". A structured framework that leads towards spiritual growth and relationship with God.

Regards,
MG

“Transformation” is part of the reward.

[Limnor]

Transactional obedience, or covenants are a pathway to transformation, not simply or just a "reward". A structured framework that leads towards spiritual growth and relationship with God.

Regards,
MG

So the beatings do stop when morale improves?

Somewhere Pavlov is smiling, or maybe Pygmalion.

Though the exchange begs the question: can an institutional structure awaken a soul, or only train it?

[MG 2.0]

So the beatings do stop when morale improves?

Somewhere Pavlov is smiling, or maybe Pygmalion.

Though the exchange begs the question: can an institutional structure awaken a soul, or only train it?

The institutional structure allows for creation of the conditions where the awakening becomes possible. Covenants are a symbolic scaffolding (I've mentioned this in regard to the temple endowment). They help bind us to divine patterns that help us, as weak and fallible humans, orient ourselves to face God and follow in the footsteps of Jesus through obedience to His commandments.

The covenant structure helps train, yes, but it also reminds and calls us to something greater. The sacrament, the temple, the covenant path we hear a lot about...they're not ends...they are the means to this transformation I've referred to.

As we keep and make covenants we also develop a greater trust in God and His promises. I'm having difficulty understanding what the 'dark side' is to all of this? From the outside looking in I suppose it might be possible to look at things in that way.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

scaffolding

I think your AI needs a patch. It’s starting to loop on scaffolding and divine patterns.

MG, sincerely, culling through all the “scaffolding,” “patterns,” “framework,” “orient ourselves,” and “means to transformation” is very distracting.

I’m not even sure what you are actually trying to say.

I think it’s something like this: The institution isn’t the awakening itself, but it creates the environment where awakening can occur, and covenants are what support transformation.

It doesn’t really answer the “how,” but I’m sure it will have something to do with the Spirit, available to all but limited enough in its scope and sufficiently bounded so it always validates itself.

And, skipping to the end of the logic line, I predict this line of reasoning will end with a closed system test.

Without some way to step outside the structure, how do you tell revelation from a closed circuit? From the outside, the structure looks like it was purpose-built to protect a lie.

And, if I’m being blunt—how do you tell truth from lie? That’s the “dark side.”

Edited to add the snippet about the structure being purpose built

[MG 2.0]

I think it’s something like this: The institution isn’t the awakening itself, but it creates the environment where awakening can occur, and covenants are what support transformation.

That's the long and short of it.

Regards,
MG