Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

[Kishkumen]

I find it oddly ironic that the Book of Mormon itself is disallowed from a discussion about coercion or blackmail.

The text is filled with covenantal warnings, oaths, and divine threats for disbelief—essentially the theological DNA of spiritual blackmail.

Characters who reject divine manifestation are cursed, struck dumb, or destroyed; entire peoples are wiped out for disbelief.

The witnesses lived inside that same narrative logic—one that made doubt spiritually perilous.

It is striking that the very book used to justify the witnesses’ sincerity also encodes the belief system that could keep them bound to it through fear.

Excellent observation. I don’t disallow this.

[MG 2.0]

I find it oddly ironic that the Book of Mormon itself is disallowed from a discussion about coercion or blackmail.

The text is filled with covenantal warnings, oaths, and divine threats for disbelief—essentially the theological DNA of spiritual blackmail.

Characters who reject divine manifestation are cursed, struck dumb, or destroyed; entire peoples are wiped out for disbelief.

The witnesses lived inside that same narrative logic—one that made doubt spiritually perilous.

It is striking that the very book used to justify the witnesses’ sincerity also encodes the belief system that could keep them bound to it through fear.

Excellent observation. I don’t disallow this.

The Book of Mormon does show a pattern that tells us that punishment for unbelief is pervasive. Korihor is struck dumb, Sherem dies, and the Nephites are annihilated. A lesson that might be learned from looking at this pattern of destruction/punishment as it relates to unbelief is that we are morally culpable for our acceptance and/or non acceptance of God's truth if we have the opportunity to receive that knowledge.

I understand the underlying question that you might have in regard to whether or not we truly have the 'freedom' to believe when the cost of doubt may have its own consequences albeit not as severe as those mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

If nothing else, we might consider whether or not the ramifications of belief vs. nonbelief have real world and after life consequences. That is something that we each...if we receive knowledge of one thing or another...have to determine for ourselves.

The Book of Mormon depictions of destruction for disbelief can feel like 'fear as terror', especially when read outside of a covenantal framework/scaffolding. The fact is, ancient Israelite and Nephite 'covenantal warnings' were part of the contract between man and God. Blessings for obedience and curses for rebellion. It has always been so.

We see echoes of that today.

This all applies to the House of Israel and those that are adopted in. So, of course others may be under different obligations to deity depending on their own conditions and life experiences.

"Where much is given, much is expected."

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Excellent observation. I don’t disallow this.

The Book of Mormon does show a pattern that tells us that punishment for unbelief is pervasive. Korihor is struck dumb, Sherem dies, and the Nephites are annihilated. A lesson that might be learned from looking at this pattern of destruction/punishment as it relates to unbelief is that we are morally culpable for our acceptance and/or non acceptance of God's truth if we have the opportunity to receive that knowledge.

I understand the underlying question that you might have in regard to whether or not we truly have the 'freedom' to believe when the cost of doubt may have its own consequences albeit not as severe as those mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

If nothing else, we might consider whether or not the ramifications of belief vs. nonbelief have real world and after life consequences. That is something that we each...if we receive knowledge of one thing or another...have to determine for ourselves.

The Book of Mormon depictions of destruction for disbelief can feel like 'fear as terror', especially when read outside of a covenantal framework/scaffolding. The fact is, ancient Israelite and Nephite 'covenantal warnings' were part of the contract between man and God. Blessings for obedience and curses for rebellion. It has always been so.

We see echoes of that today.

This all applies to the House of Israel and those that are adopted in. So, of course others may be under different obligations to deity depending on their own conditions and life experiences.

"Where much is given, much is expected."

Regards,
MG

Fibber,

Seriously, what will it take for you to finally honor your promise to Dr. Shades and stop using AI? For the love of all that's holy, please stop!

[Marcus]

<AI content snipped.>

Fibber,

Seriously, what will it take for you to finally honor your promise to Dr. Shades and stop using AI? For the love of all that's holy, please stop!

It's getting ridiculous. For example, consider the word "scaffolding," a word Limnor commented on.

scaffolding

I think your AI needs a patch. It’s starting to loop on scaffolding..

If you search the word in our forums, the first 40 uses are a handful by Analytics' AI, 2 by whiskey (likely AI), and the rest, I kid you not, are AI cut-and-pastes by mentalgymnast, spread across virtually every thread he comments in. Does he think people don't see he is breaking the rules, again?? Or, more likely, he is using one of his most common trolling techniques, the breaking of rules blatantly while blustering his innocence. How many threads has he derailed doing this? Too many to count.

[Limnor]

The Book of Mormon depictions of destruction for disbelief can feel like 'fear as terror', especially when read outside of a covenantal framework/scaffolding. The fact is, ancient Israelite and Nephite 'covenantal warnings' were part of the contract between man and God. Blessings for obedience and curses for rebellion. It has always been so.

Clever move, turning coercion into covenant.

Summary of the AI: “Belief enforced by consequence, masquerading as choice.”

Edited to add: It’s also worth noting that the model you’re using as “scaffolding” is the Deuteronomic model, not the fulfillment—the New Covenant. I get that Pauline thought is not popular in the Mormon world, but developing a familiarity with the concept before making statements such as this is a better move.

[MG 2.0]

The Book of Mormon depictions of destruction for disbelief can feel like 'fear as terror', especially when read outside of a covenantal framework/scaffolding. The fact is, ancient Israelite and Nephite 'covenantal warnings' were part of the contract between man and God. Blessings for obedience and curses for rebellion. It has always been so.

Clever move, turning coercion into covenant.

Summary of the AI: “Belief enforced by consequence, masquerading as choice.”

Edited to add: It’s also worth noting that the model you’re using as “scaffolding” is the Deuteronomic model, not the fulfillment—the New Covenant. I get that Pauline thought is not popular in the Mormon world, but developing a familiarity with the concept before making statements such as this is a better move.

I was the first one on this board to use the word "scaffolding" in a new context back in 2021.

Here was the post:

Years ago that bothered me quite a bit. Long story made short, as I came to see that the symbols and practices that Joseph and others experienced could be seen/used as a revelatory template, of sorts, used as a scaffolding, if you will, to use as a form to present the endowment, it didn’t bother me as it once had.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1331&p=43837&hilit= ... ing#p43837

and:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155091&p=2776023&hi ... g#p2776023

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155091&p=2776484&hi ... g#p2776484

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=156984&p=2822199&hi ... g#p2822199

All posts were in 2021,2022,2023

I've used the word "scaffolding" in conjunction with the word "template" which runs parallel to "framework".

I came up with the context in regard to how I chose to use this word. The ways I've used this word are independent of any other application of the word.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...The ways I've used this word are independent of any other application of the word...

It really doesn't enhance one's reputation to argue that one has used a word unlike how anyone else on the planet has ever used that word.

...All posts were in 2021,2022,2023

I've used the word "scaffolding" in conjunction with the word "template" which runs parallel to "framework"...

Mentalgymnast's been cheating by cut-and-pasting other sources without credit for that long??

[Limnor]

Architecture aside, you never actually addressed the Old/New Covenant thoughts.

[huckelberry]

I did not recognize AI in MG's post. I thought it a mix of MG clunky and standard Mormon talk which could spill out rather easily for a person listening to Mormon talks on a regular basis. I am no expert on recognizing AI so I may well be just missing what others are seeing.

[Limnor]

I did not recognize AI in MG's post. I thought it a mix of MG clunky and standard Mormon talk which could spill out rather easily for a person listening to Mormon talks on a regular basis. I am no expert on recognizing AI so I may well be just missing what others are seeing.

Fair point Huck. The coherence of your non-empirical dimensions are spot-on here. The narrative seems internally consistent and contextually robust.

Maybe I should reconsider whether or not the ramifications of this post have real-world and after-thread consequences.