Hope from our Christian Friends

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

So, God allows everything? Boy, that’s a real problem of evil, a paradox even. It’s the Triad being inconsistent if you ask me.

I don't see it as a problem.

In the past when we’ve attempted to dig into this issue with you, you opted out. And that’s fine. These days, the last thing in the world I’m going to do is argue god with a woman who has been open about her health challenges and faith.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Israelite god is a nasty piece of work as evidenced by the descriptions found in Jewish texts and histories. The Middle Eastern god is credited with some heinous acts. I don’t believe he exists, but you do and you’ve figured out how to make it work for you.

Personally I think you should’ve stuck with Dagda.

- Doc

[Physics Guy]

I don't think it's inconsistent to respect some of these Bronze Age religious people for their few durable insights while discarding most of what they thought. In science we keep a few old ideas, with modern adaptations; we respect our forebears for their worthwhile contributions, but we have no problem saying that about a lot of important things they were totally wrong. They don't have to have been right about everything to be worth remembering. On the contrary, a generation that uncovers anything at all that will be worth preserving is a generation that has done unusually well.

I still use some equations that came from Isaac Newton. I don't feel at all obliged to believe or commend everything that Newton ever wrote. He lived in a time when no-one had seen nothin' yet; and Newton personally was such a psychological piece of work, probably because his mother abandoned him at an early age, that we have to stare hard at anything he said or did. His unfortunate personal history may be partly responsible for the breakthroughs he made in science, but this does not mean at all that misogyny or vindictiveness is supported by science.

In a similar way the ancient Israelites were a tribe in the ancient Middle East. It's hardly surprising that they mostly saw God as a tribal deity. The wonder is that they saw anything else about God.

I want to pursue the physics of Newton: not the things that Newton thought were true, but Newton's experience of seeing a bit of the real truth. In the same way, I want to see and serve the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: not the god that the people who told the patriarch stories thought they were serving, but the truth that those people partially glimpsed.

[Doctor Steuss]

He does have his own temperament which could be thought of as offensive to some.

That the temperament of an unrepentant adjudicated rapist -- with a documented history of bragging about walking in on children getting dressed, who sexualized his own infant daughter on national TV, and oversaw the forced sterilization of migrant women, who regularly attacks women, veterans, journalists, steals from charities, engages in constant wage theft, and regularly targets "the least of these" for his malignant hatred -- is only offensive to "some" is deeply depressing.

[msnobody]

I think Trump’s thought bubbles should often not become speech bubbles. He is a sinner just like the rest of us, and on his own spiritual journey as well. He does have his own temperament which could be thought of as offensive to some. Nevertheless, God has allowed him to be our president, just as he has allowed others.

So, God allows everything? Boy, that’s a real problem of evil, a paradox even. It’s the Triad being inconsistent if you ask me.

He is sovereign.

[Jersey Girl]

I don't see it as a problem.

In the past when we’ve attempted to dig into this issue with you, you opted out. And that’s fine. These days, the last thing in the world I’m going to do is argue god with a woman who has been open about her health challenges and faith.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Israelite god is a nasty piece of work as evidenced by the descriptions found in Jewish texts and histories. The Middle Eastern god is credited with some heinous acts. I don’t believe he exists, but you do and you’ve figured out how to make it work for you.

Personally I think you should’ve stuck with Dagda.

- Doc

I don't recall ever opting out of a similar discussion with any "we" on this board. I don't know why I would do that. And what the heck is the Triad you were referring to and this Dagda?

I'll start with a couple of your statements and see where you're at.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Israelite god is a nasty piece of work as evidenced by the descriptions found in Jewish texts and histories. The Middle Eastern god is credited with some heinous acts.

Are you thinking about heinous acts in favor of Israel or against Israel? What were the outcomes?

I don’t believe he exists, but you do and you’ve figured out how to make it work for you.

If by working for me you mean reading the text, yeah I do see patterns of behavior between Yaweh and individuals as well as groups of people. I claim no expertise, do you?

Moving forward...yes, I do think God allows things like Trump getting into office. Do you yourself not see any benefit to our current society for allowing him to abuse the heck out of the office of the Presidency, to openly exercise dishonesty, greed, corruption or the resulting terror, trauma, chaos? Do you see no benefit at all in God allowing him to abuse American citizens, stacking the courts and senate in his favor, letting him run wild while being paid to do a job he's not doing and one that he's obviously incapable of doing?

You don't see any benefit to us at all?

Here. Let me be more direct. There is an emergent situation at work. What do you see happening across this country as a response to Trump?

[msnobody]

I think Trump’s thought bubbles should often not become speech bubbles. He is a sinner just like the rest of us, and on his own spiritual journey as well. He does have his own temperament which could be thought of as offensive to some. Nevertheless, God has allowed him to be our president, just as he has allowed others.

OK, you are, as a Christian, exercising unlimited charity towards Trump.

But please be frank: when you say:

He does have his own temperament which could be thought of as offensive to some.

Do YOU not find his 'temperament' (with all the lies, the nasty attitude towards women, the naked greed and lust for unlimited power and access to wealth in despite of all constitutional restraints) offensive?

Just to remind you, Jesus did not hold back in calling out wickedness when he saw it. He did not say of the Pharisees that 'their temperament could be thought of as offensive to some', but hit them right between the eyes as in Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?".

No, he did not hold back, and no, he did not say that the Pharisee’s “temperament” could be thought of offensive to some.
Not a day goes by where don’t I have to choose how I respond to the actions or words of others, or whether I need to even respond at all. When I do, I often to take into account the temperament of the other person. Jesus also said to the scribes and Pharisees, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” One day we will all give account to our creator.

[Chap]

OK, you are, as a Christian, exercising unlimited charity towards Trump.

[,...]

Do YOU not find [Trump's] 'temperament' (with all the lies, the nasty attitude towards women, the naked greed and lust for unlimited power and access to wealth in despite of all constitutional restraints) offensive?

Just to remind you, Jesus did not hold back in calling out wickedness when he saw it. He did not say of the Pharisees that 'their temperament could be thought of as offensive to some', but hit them right between the eyes as in Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?".

No, he did not hold back, and no, he did not say that the Pharisee’s “temperament” could be thought of offensive to some.
Not a day goes by where don’t I have to choose how I respond to the actions or words of others, or whether I need to even respond at all. When I do, I often to take into account the temperament of the other person. Jesus also said to the scribes and Pharisees, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” One day we will all give account to our creator.

There's a very significant difference between the circumstances under which Jesus spoke and acted in the cases of the Pharisees and the woman accused of adultery.

Pharisees: A powerful and respected group, whose rigorist interpretation of the Torah weighed heavily on the lives of many, while they proudly paraded their own piety and condemned every supposed sin of those they dominated.

Woman: By her gender alone, a powerless person in first-century Judea, accused under circumstances that gave her no possibility of defending herself. Basically, if enough men felt that she needed stoning, she would be subject to a shameful and agonising death, which at least some of the participants would derive satisfaction (of various kinds ...) in inflicting.

In the case of the powerful and arrogant, Jesus denounces them fiercely and openly for the evil that they do. In the case of the weak and defenceless woman, he shames the excited male mob into sparing her.

Don't you think that Trump deserves the treatment Jesus gave to the powerful and arrogant? If you never speak out against open and shameless wickedness, can you really be said to be imitating the master you claim to serve?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What do you see happening across this country as a response to Trump?

I don’t believe god exists. I believe what’s happening is a defect of democracy wherein politicians are a reflection of the electorate, and the electorate is generally as sharp as a polished marble.

I see exactly zero benefits from having Trump and his cabal of stupidity in power. For example Trump’s net worth is now $3B. Not a damned peep from the electorate.

[canpakes]

Moving forward...yes, I do think God allows things like Trump getting into office. Do you yourself not see any benefit to our current society for allowing him to abuse the heck out of the office of the Presidency, to openly exercise dishonesty, greed, corruption or the resulting terror, trauma, chaos? Do you see no benefit at all in God allowing him to abuse American citizens, stacking the courts and senate in his favor, letting him run wild while being paid to do a job he's not doing and one that he's obviously incapable of doing?

You don't see any benefit to us at all?

How soon does that benefit manifest, after affecting how many, and to what extent? Will that have been worth it?

What was the benefit of having Nazis come into power in 1930’s Germany? And what of that benefit today? Who or what is attacking that benefit now?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I think I need to repost this rant:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trumpvirus/s/EIVvzlVHff

What do I think of all this? Have the damned life you voted for. They voted with hate, and this is what it feels like when the hate comes back to them. There’s no god playing 4d chess with their souls, or ours, and there’s no way out that involves thoughts or prayers. There is no god. Only us.