Ex'd for defending Joseph?

[Markk]

If this was discussed here forgive me.

This one has got me confused, on the surface it seems this may one of the dumbest moves by the church in a while. Karen Hyatt was excommunicated for publicly teaching that Joseph had just one wife, Emma, and did not enter into Polygamy.

I am about 3/4 of the way through her interview at Mormon Stories. Karen was and even after her excommunication is faithful and attends church. She was a stake Relief Society president and had other callings, has raised 4 or 5 children in the church that are all active. She has done her homework big time on the history and documents.

From what I gather she and Dan Vogel have discussed their opinions, and obviously disagree. Hopefully Dan will give his opinions on this here. During the podcast he was giving comments, which I haven't had a chance to look at yet.

I am at the point in the interview where she said during her hearing the SP said that her little book she published, which is free online, and what she taught almost cause a fist fight in a ward.

There is a lot to process on this one for me. "Is it because it paints BY and all those that practiced and championed Polygamy as man whores?" "Because it butchers section 132?" " for opposing the essays publicly?"

Anyways I would appreciate any thoughts on this from those of you that are more familiar with Karen and her excommunication? Maybe Reel and RFM will break this all down for those like me that don't have the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6rbRfU1PDs&t=4s

https://josephtoldthetruth.org/wp-conte ... -LINKS.pdf

[huckelberry]

I watched some of Dehlins interview. Karen comes across as thoughtful and well meaning. I dining hear any consideration of witness from the ladies who claimed to have married Joseph. To my mind the scenario of Brigham inventing polygamy creating a false cover story is a train wreck for Lds authority claims, to state the obvious.

I found Mr Dehlins self description of not thinking when growing up of Joseph Smith multiple wives puzzling. I am sure we covered Joseph Smith wives in seminary. The official church text included my memory claims (I have not seen a copy of that text in a long time) I was later taken aback at the number of wives. My seminary version was minimalized some. There was not discussion of Joseph Smith denials.

Perhaps my parents were more open about polygamy. I thought it as well known as the eagle on eagle gate.

Oh well, it's a dark and tangled matter no matter which way it is folded or turned.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

And in completely unrelated news, the church posthumously excommunicates Joseph Smith for publicly denying he practiced polygamy:

[Rivendale]

I watched some of Dehlins interview. Karen comes across as thoughtful and well meaning. I dining hear any consideration of witness from the ladies who claimed to have married Joseph. To my mind the scenario of Brigham inventing polygamy creating a false cover story is a train wreck for LDS authority claims, to state the obvious.

I found Mr Dehlins self description of not thinking when growing up of Joseph Smith multiple wives puzzling. I am sure we covered Joseph Smith wives in seminary. The official church text included my memory claims (I have not seen a copy of that text in a long time) I was later taken aback at the number of wives. My seminary version was minimalized some. There was not discussion of Joseph Smith denials.

Perhaps my parents were more open about polygamy. I thought it as well known as the eagle on eagle gate.

Oh well, it's a dark and tangled matter no matter which way it is folded or turned.

The idea that "I was taught that" has became a flash point for many members now that the internet exposed much of the damning information in early Mormon history. There has been a cultural belief that if a member didn't experience it then it must have never happened. Mormon leaders failed at correlation. Top leaders have doubled down on the fact that the information has always been out there and blamed members for not being diligent enough to find it. Shame on the members for not reading that 1970'ish article in the Ensign.

[Markk]

I watched some of Dehlins interview. Karen comes across as thoughtful and well meaning. I dining hear any consideration of witness from the ladies who claimed to have married Joseph. To my mind the scenario of Brigham inventing polygamy creating a false cover story is a train wreck for LDS authority claims, to state the obvious.

I found Mr Dehlins self description of not thinking when growing up of Joseph Smith multiple wives puzzling. I am sure we covered Joseph Smith wives in seminary. The official church text included my memory claims (I have not seen a copy of that text in a long time) I was later taken aback at the number of wives. My seminary version was minimalized some. There was not discussion of Joseph Smith denials.

Perhaps my parents were more open about polygamy. I thought it as well known as the eagle on eagle gate.

Oh well, it's a dark and tangled matter no matter which way it is folded or turned.

I never remember it being taught that Joseph was polygamous. I don't think I really acknowledged it until I read in a anti-book at age 33. I suppose it might have been rumored in church, but absolutely never taught. My parents never taught it to us, and their great grand parents were all polygamous, all 4, sides, and I did not even know that until about 10 years ago when I found it out on family search.

Maybe it was because of the hurt. My mothers great grandmother was married and sealed in Nauvoo, and was left out to fend for herself in Utah after the manifest when Edwin Whiting dumped her.

But anyways this is a huge mess for sure and I don't understand how bringing it to attention by ex'ing her will help the church.

[Markk]

I watched some of Dehlins interview. Karen comes across as thoughtful and well meaning. I dining hear any consideration of witness from the ladies who claimed to have married Joseph. To my mind the scenario of Brigham inventing polygamy creating a false cover story is a train wreck for LDS authority claims, to state the obvious.

I found Mr Dehlins self description of not thinking when growing up of Joseph Smith multiple wives puzzling. I am sure we covered Joseph Smith wives in seminary. The official church text included my memory claims (I have not seen a copy of that text in a long time) I was later taken aback at the number of wives. My seminary version was minimalized some. There was not discussion of Joseph Smith denials.

Perhaps my parents were more open about polygamy. I thought it as well known as the eagle on eagle gate.

Oh well, it's a dark and tangled matter no matter which way it is folded or turned.

The idea that "I was taught that" has became a flash point for many members now that the internet exposed much of the damning information in early Mormon history. There has been a cultural belief that if a member didn't experience it then it must have never happened. Mormon leaders failed at correlation. Top leaders have doubled down on the fact that the information has always been out there and blamed members for not being diligent enough to find it. Shame on the members for not reading that 1970'ish article in the Ensign.

That reminds me when DCP told me years ago it was my fault I didn't know Joseph used a pistol in his defense at the jail because in 1820 +- a Mormon went around the country and played out the martyrdom with painted pictures.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

The idea that "I was taught that" has became a flash point for many members now that the internet exposed much of the damning information in early Mormon history. There has been a cultural belief that if a member didn't experience it then it must have never happened. Mormon leaders failed at correlation. Top leaders have doubled down on the fact that the information has always been out there and blamed members for not being diligent enough to find it. Shame on the members for not reading that 1970'ish article in the Ensign.

That reminds me when DCP told me years ago it was my fault I didn't know Joseph used a pistol in his defense at the jail because in 1820 +- a Mormon went around the country and played out the martyrdom with painted pictures.

Shame on you, Markk! Repent! I genuinely thought everyone was well-acquainted with this anonymous Mormon wanderer and his collection of totally real Smith shootout pictures. Your lack of belief in this completely unverified, top-secret, everyone-knows-it-happened legend is frankly staggering. Always believe the Afore.

[Markk]

That reminds me when DCP told me years ago it was my fault I didn't know Joseph used a pistol in his defense at the jail because in 1820 +- a Mormon went around the country and played out the martyrdom with painted pictures.

Shame on you, Markk! Repent! I genuinely thought everyone was well-acquainted with this anonymous Mormon wanderer and his collection of totally real Smith shootout pictures. Your lack of belief in this completely unverified, top-secret, everyone-knows-it-happened legend is frankly staggering. Always believe the Afore.

I will thanks...and I'll also repent for saying 1820, before Joe died, I think it was 1920 ish

[yellowstone123]

Markk wrote:

I never remember it being taught that Joseph was polygamous. I don't think I really acknowledged it until I read in a anti-book at age 33. I suppose it might have been rumored in church, but absolutely never taught. My parents never taught it to us, and their great grand parents were all polygamous, all 4, sides, and I did not even know that until about 10 years ago when I found it out on family search.

Maybe it was because of the hurt. My mothers great grandmother was married and sealed in Nauvoo, and was left out to fend for herself in Utah after the manifest when Edwin Whiting dumped her.

I was thinking maybe it might have been where certain people lived and at what time period. Being brought up in the general Los Angeles area in the '60s and '70s and involved with Mormonism, it must have been different from someone who was born in Provo or maybe a small town in Utah during the same time. There was nothing that hinted at Joseph Smith's having relationships with other women in his community. Saturday's Warrior didn't have polygamous characters singing a song about spiritual wifery. I didn't have someone sitting next to me in school who couldn't join the LDS church because he lived with a father, his mother, and five other women and their children, who he considered his brothers and sisters, and who all attended the FLDS chapel. This might have caused me to ask questions. And when I heard and then read about Joseph Smith Jr.'s behavior with other women and how the church would defend it as something God wanted him to do—something God wanted a married man to do—I just chuckled and shook my head because of what I was going through as a young single guy. For me, it was the ultimate mental gymnastics where medals should be given out. Listening to John D.'s interview with Lance Allred on Mormon Stories brought a lot of insight into these issues, and I've listened to it a few times.

[Markk]

Markk wrote:

I never remember it being taught that Joseph was polygamous. I don't think I really acknowledged it until I read in a anti-book at age 33. I suppose it might have been rumored in church, but absolutely never taught. My parents never taught it to us, and their great grand parents were all polygamous, all 4, sides, and I did not even know that until about 10 years ago when I found it out on family search.

Maybe it was because of the hurt. My mothers great grandmother was married and sealed in Nauvoo, and was left out to fend for herself in Utah after the manifest when Edwin Whiting dumped her.

I was thinking maybe it might have been where certain people lived and at what time period. Being brought up in the general Los Angeles area in the '60s and '70s and involved with Mormonism, it must have been different from someone who was born in Provo or maybe a small town in Utah during the same time. There was nothing that hinted at Joseph Smith's having relationships with other women in his community. Saturday's Warrior didn't have polygamous characters singing a song about spiritual wifery. I didn't have someone sitting next to me in school who couldn't join the LDS church because he lived with a father, his mother, and five other women and their children, who he considered his brothers and sisters, and who all attended the FLDS chapel. This might have caused me to ask questions. And when I heard and then read about Joseph Smith Jr.'s behavior with other women and how the church would defend it as something God wanted him to do—something God wanted a married man to do—I just chuckled and shook my head because of what I was going through as a young single guy. For me, it was the ultimate mental gymnastics where medals should be given out. Listening to John D.'s interview with Lance Allred on Mormon Stories brought a lot of insight into these issues, and I've listened to it a few times.

I agree, I was brought up in the same time period 60 miles east of LA, San Bernardino. Polygamy was just not on our radar. I was for sure impacted by racial issues that someone in Utah would not have experienced. In fact I had a cousin who was born and raised outside of SLC, and he came down to visit us one summer and saw a Black guy walking down the street and said “look, a native”….in reference to National Geographic.

So I guess it goes both ways and how we did Mormonism certainly depends on our environments.