Ex'd for defending Joseph?

[Physics Guy]

For modern non-Mormons, polygamy is the Mormon punchline. You hear about ancient American Christian Jews, and modern Apostles and Prophets, and think, Wha? It’s weird enough that you almost have to keep listening, just to see where the heck it could be going, but then you hear about all Smith’s women, and it’s obvious how it all fits: oh, a sex cult, of course.

Bada-bum.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

In my formative years, to claim Joseph Smith was a polygamist would have been met with rebuke. Fast forward a decade or two into the enlightenment of the internet and church essays, and the reverse is now true.

The doctrines and beliefs of Mormonism are ever shifting. They are at the whim and discretion of the current crop of leaders, and their decisions are driven by current public opinions. If you want to stay in good standing, then keep your mouth shut, bow your head, and say yes. This is the safe path.

[MG 2.0]

For modern non-Mormons, polygamy is the Mormon punchline. You hear about ancient American Christian Jews, and modern Apostles and Prophets, and think, Wha? It’s weird enough that you almost have to keep listening, just to see where the heck it could be going, but then you hear about all Smith’s women, and it’s obvious how it all fits: oh, a sex cult, of course.

Bada-bum.

Hi Physics Guy. I'm sure you are aware that polygamy has deeper origins than some might think/realize. Here is a timeline:

September 1823- Moroni appears to Joseph Smith and quotes prophecies about the restoration of sealing keys.

June 1829- Joseph Smith translates the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, which includes teachings on when polygamy is authorized by God.

June 1830- just one year later Joseph Smith begins his inspired translation, or revision, of the Bible, which later sources identify as an early catalyst for Joseph becoming aware of plural marriage as part of the restoration.

It goes on from there. Often, in the discussion on polygamy, its original roots are overlooked in restoration timeline.

Reducing it all to "sex cult" would seem a bit naïve and simplistic. Not to ignore, however, all of the scandalous and sensational writing that has been done on the subject from Nauvoo to the present (whisperings even before that). On the outside looking in it can definitely be interpreted and looked at as being "cultish" as you seem to be settled on in your beliefs.

In relation to this particular thread, we are seeing a division within the church in regards to those that will follow the leaders and the established doctrines and beliefs and those that are going a different way and then publicizing/preaching it. As has been said many times now over the years, however, "Keep your eye on the prophet" and hearken to his words.

If one does so they will stay/find themselves in the mainstream of the church. If they don't, they won't. Pretty simple, right? And now in the age of the internet we can see this dynamic in all of its glory.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

For modern non-Mormons, polygamy is the Mormon punchline. You hear about ancient American Christian Jews, and modern Apostles and Prophets, and think, Wha? It’s weird enough that you almost have to keep listening, just to see where the heck it could be going, but then you hear about all Smith’s women, and it’s obvious how it all fits: oh, a sex cult, of course.

Bada-bum.

Hi Physics Guy. I'm sure you are aware that polygamy has deeper origins than some might think/realize. Here is a timeline:

September 1823- Moroni appears to Joseph Smith and quotes prophecies about the restoration of sealing keys.

June 1829- Joseph Smith translates the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, which includes teachings on when polygamy is authorized by God.

June 1830- just one year later Joseph Smith begins his inspired translation, or revision, of the Bible, which later sources identify as an early catalyst for Joseph becoming aware of plural marriage as part of the restoration.

It goes on from there. Often, in the discussion on polygamy, its original roots are overlooked in restoration timeline.

Reducing it all to "sex cult" would seem a bit naïve and simplistic. Not to ignore, however, all of the scandalous and sensational writing that has been done on the subject from Nauvoo to the present (whisperings even before that). On the outside looking in it can definitely be interpreted and looked at as being "cultish" as you seem to be settled on in your beliefs.

In relation to this particular thread, we are seeing a division within the church in regards to those that will follow the leaders and the established doctrines and beliefs and those that are going a different way and then publicizing/preaching it. As has been said many times now over the years, however, "Keep your eye on the prophet" and hearken to his words.

If one does so they will stay/find themselves in the mainstream of the church. If they don't, they won't. Pretty simple, right? And now in the age of the internet we can see this dynamic in all of its glory.

Regards,
MG

Your timeline is missing the sham sealing ceremony performed for Emma. Because he decided to hide the affair from his wife.

What happened to more data being better than less, MG?

[MG 2.0]

Hi Physics Guy. I'm sure you are aware that polygamy has deeper origins than some might think/realize. Here is a timeline:

September 1823- Moroni appears to Joseph Smith and quotes prophecies about the restoration of sealing keys.

June 1829- Joseph Smith translates the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, which includes teachings on when polygamy is authorized by God.

June 1830- just one year later Joseph Smith begins his inspired translation, or revision, of the Bible, which later sources identify as an early catalyst for Joseph becoming aware of plural marriage as part of the restoration.

It goes on from there. Often, in the discussion on polygamy, its original roots are overlooked in restoration timeline.

Reducing it all to "sex cult" would seem a bit naïve and simplistic. Not to ignore, however, all of the scandalous and sensational writing that has been done on the subject from Nauvoo to the present (whisperings even before that). On the outside looking in it can definitely be interpreted and looked at as being "cultish" as you seem to be settled on in your beliefs.

In relation to this particular thread, we are seeing a division within the church in regards to those that will follow the leaders and the established doctrines and beliefs and those that are going a different way and then publicizing/preaching it. As has been said many times now over the years, however, "Keep your eye on the prophet" and hearken to his words.

If one does so they will stay/find themselves in the mainstream of the church. If they don't, they won't. Pretty simple, right? And now in the age of the internet we can see this dynamic in all of its glory.

Regards,
MG

Your timeline is missing the sham sealing ceremony performed for Emma. Because he decided to hide the affair from his wife.

What happened to more data being better than less, MG?

I literally said, "It goes on from there". What you apparently fail to realize is the precursors and foundations which I have time lined for your enjoyment and elucidation.

Physics Guy is trying to shrink wrap it all into, "It's a cult!!"

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Note that this all happened close to the culmination of Joseph’s debauchery. Which ultimately caused his death.

This was hardly some early confusion. It was the pattern of his life of deception.

The First, Secret Sealing: Joseph Smith secretly sealed himself to the teenage sisters, Emily and Eliza Partridge, who were living in the Smith household as maids, around March 1843. Emma was out of town at the time and unaware of the marriages.

Emma's Arrangement: When Emma Smith became aware of the principle of plural marriage and reluctantly agreed to it as a divine commandment, she specified that she would choose the wives. She selected the Partridge sisters, likely believing this would be less painful or help maintain some control over the situation.

The "Sham" Ceremony: Instead of admitting to Emma that he had already married the sisters in secret, Joseph Smith performed a second, public sealing ceremony in May 1843, with Emma present as a witness. Emily Partridge later indicated that she kept silent about the first ceremony, attributing the decision to Joseph.

Significance: This event is cited by critics and historians as evidence of deception and secrecy in Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, and a source of distress for Emma Smith. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' official history book, Saints, mentions the second ceremony, which has prompted discussion and a desire for more transparency among some members about the motivations behind the deception.

[MG 2.0]

Note that this all happened close to the culmination of Joseph’s debauchery. Which ultimately caused his death.

This was hardly some early confusion. It was the pattern of his life of deception.

The First, Secret Sealing: Joseph Smith secretly sealed himself to the teenage sisters, Emily and Eliza Partridge, who were living in the Smith household as maids, around March 1843. Emma was out of town at the time and unaware of the marriages.

Emma's Arrangement: When Emma Smith became aware of the principle of plural marriage and reluctantly agreed to it as a divine commandment, she specified that she would choose the wives. She selected the Partridge sisters, likely believing this would be less painful or help maintain some control over the situation.

The "Sham" Ceremony: Instead of admitting to Emma that he had already married the sisters in secret, Joseph Smith performed a second, public sealing ceremony in May 1843, with Emma present as a witness. Emily Partridge later indicated that she kept silent about the first ceremony, attributing the decision to Joseph.

Significance: This event is cited by critics and historians as evidence of deception and secrecy in Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, and a source of distress for Emma Smith. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' official history book, Saints, mentions the second ceremony, which has prompted discussion and a desire for more transparency among some members about the motivations behind the deception.

You are correct. There was early confusion as there were no clear rules set except for those in Section 132 (which came later in the timeline). Even at that, the implementation was chaotic as one might expect when the Prophet's wife is at the center of forces pushing on here from different directions. The doctrine WAS controversial. The participants, in some cases, were young, inexperienced, and often frightened. These facts are indisputable.

Emma had an emotional and moral struggle with polygamy. Joseph’s actions can be seen as attempts to keep his marriage intact while still practicing plural marriage.

Joseph was put in a position in which he felt obligated to avoid a public scandal while at the same time avoiding legal trouble and internal church conflict.

That's why I'm suggesting that, as I said in my original post on this thread, that we ought to look a bit more carefully at the roots/foundations of the practice of polygamy. It makes a difference. Critics often do not look at the timeline of the practice and its initial precursors.

Even on this thread. So far anyway.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Note that this all happened close to the culmination of Joseph’s debauchery. Which ultimately caused his death.

This was hardly some early confusion. It was the pattern of his life of deception.

You are correct. There was early confusion as there were no clear rules set except for those in Section 132 (which came later in the timeline). Even at that, the implementation was chaotic as one might expect when the Prophet's wife is at the center of forces pushing on here from different directions. The doctrine WAS controversial. The participants, in some cases, were young, inexperienced, and often frightened. These facts are indisputable.

Emma had an emotional and moral struggle with polygamy. Joseph’s actions can be seen as attempts to keep his marriage intact while still practicing plural marriage.

Joseph was put in a position in which he felt obligated to avoid a public scandal while at the same time avoiding legal trouble and internal church conflict.

That's why I'm suggesting that, as I said in my original post on this thread, that we ought to look a bit more carefully at the roots/foundations of the practice of polygamy. It makes a difference. Critics often do not look at the timeline of the practice and its initial precursors.

Even on this thread. So far anyway.

Regards,
MG

I have no doubt that men who cheat lie to their wives to keep the marriage intact. That’s the very definition of adultery.

[sock puppet]

And in completely unrelated news, the church posthumously excommunicates Joseph Smith for publicly denying he practiced polygamy:

Slight correction Everybody Wang Chung. The date of that JSJr quote is 5.26.1844.

[I Have Questions]

Note that this all happened close to the culmination of Joseph’s debauchery. Which ultimately caused his death.

This was hardly some early confusion. It was the pattern of his life of deception.

You are correct. There was early confusion as there were no clear rules set except for those in Section 132 (which came later in the timeline)

Why, in the event of having unclear “guidance” on how to proceed, did Joseph default having multiple sexual relationships behind his wife’s back? Rather than defaulting to doing nothing until such a time as it was clear? I think it’s a rather rhetorical question, because we all know why. But I’d love to see you wrangle an excuse out.