God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

Powerful stuff Philo, thank you.

[Philo Sofee]

O.K., before I play my cards, I sincerely have to ask you to verify that this really is Dan Peterson saying this. I KNOW it isn't Dan McClellan, so I am assuming it's Dan Peterson. But I just want to make sure it really is something he actually did say. Thank you.

Estel. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpet ... rch.html

Oh! Thank you kindly Mellon Nin!

[MG 2.0]

Wow! I go away all day and look what happens. I guess the 'rules' set out were a bit harsh and unreasonable for a board like this.

Philo, you're the man. Tolkien took over. Congrats.

Different strokes for different folks. It might have been appropriate to split off the thread.

Regards,
MG

[Philo Sofee]

Wow! I go away all day and look what happens. I guess the 'rules' set out were a bit harsh and unreasonable for a board like this.

Philo, you're the man. Tolkien took over. Congrats.

Different strokes for different folks. It might have been appropriate to split off the thread.

Regards,
MG

I think people are hungry to understand views that don't leave them felling trapped or tricked or having to make a choice one way or another, and therefore since we aren't trying to find out if Tolkien is right or wrong, but simply learning what he has given us, it is much more enjoyable. Perhaps helpful for future conversations..... we are all, I do believe, utterly exhausted from the apologetic clap trap bait and switches, connivings, desperado weird illusions, etc., and just want to enjoy some enlightening and interesting information, of which one can never go wrong with using Tolkien.

I mean, lets face it, when your pet theory that is going to support only your interpretation of Mormonism truth is that crooked paths now means: moral ambiguity, institutional necessity, bad behavior, coercion, intrinsic goodness, extrinsic enforcement, such vagueness is load-bearing.
Once everything fits under “crooked paths,” nothing can be cleanly judged. You have for years now somehow manipulated ideas to always enforce your interpretation of prophets, scriptures, and church, and no one else is going to make it to the celestial because they have no temple, it just doesn't land anymore. The reason Tolkien landed here is because we finally have a breath of fresh air without being worried about being hijacked, or manipulated, or judged erroneously, or even at all, but just a good old exploration and learning event. Remember, no one here is even saying Tolkien got anything right or that he is the last word on anything either. It isn't about that at all. That's THE point.

[Whiskey]

Wow! I go away all day and look what happens. I guess the 'rules' set out were a bit harsh and unreasonable for a board like this.

Philo, you're the man. Tolkien took over. Congrats.

Different strokes for different folks. It might have been appropriate to split off the thread.

Regards,
MG

I think people are hungry to understand views that don't leave them felling trapped or tricked or having to make a choice one way or another, and therefore since we aren't trying to find out if Tolkien is right or wrong, but simply learning what he has given us, it is much more enjoyable. Perhaps helpful for future conversations..... we are all, I do believe, utterly exhausted from the apologetic clap trap bait and switches, connivings, desperado weird illusions, etc., and just want to enjoy some enlightening and interesting information, of which one can never go wrong with using Tolkien.

I mean, lets face it, when your pet theory that is going to support only your interpretation of Mormonism truth is that crooked paths now means: moral ambiguity, institutional necessity, bad behavior, coercion, intrinsic goodness, extrinsic enforcement, such vagueness is load-bearing.
Once everything fits under “crooked paths,” nothing can be cleanly judged. You have for years now somehow manipulated ideas to always enforce your interpretation of prophets, scriptures, and church, and no one else is going to make it to the celestial because they have no temple, it just doesn't land anymore. The reason Tolkien landed here is because we finally have a breath of fresh air without being worried about being hijacked, or manipulated, or judged erroneously, or even at all, but just a good old exploration and learning event. Remember, no one here is even saying Tolkien got anything right or that he is the last word on anything either. It isn't about that at all. That's THE point.

Philo. Read Spiritual Warfare. By Jed McKenna.

Seriously.

Spiritual Warfare issues a damning and irrefutable indictment of its own audience and genre, putting spirituality and religion themselves on trial. A terrible crime is being committed against humanity, a crime of oppression and subjugation far beyond Orwell's 1984. We are the victims of this crime, but we are also its perpetrators. Our motive is fear, our sin is ignorance, and the chain in which we enslave ourselves is belief. "Belief means not wanting to know what is true." -Friedrich Nietzsche Spiritual Warfare is a book for those who do want to know; people who want to escape from their dark asylum and experience a direct and authentic spirituality; people for whom it's time to look, to think, to know, and -- at long last -- to put away childish things.

You will definitely have an interesting podcast after reading this book.

[Philo Sofee]

I think people are hungry to understand views that don't leave them felling trapped or tricked or having to make a choice one way or another, and therefore since we aren't trying to find out if Tolkien is right or wrong, but simply learning what he has given us, it is much more enjoyable. Perhaps helpful for future conversations..... we are all, I do believe, utterly exhausted from the apologetic clap trap bait and switches, connivings, desperado weird illusions, etc., and just want to enjoy some enlightening and interesting information, of which one can never go wrong with using Tolkien.

I mean, lets face it, when your pet theory that is going to support only your interpretation of Mormonism truth is that crooked paths now means: moral ambiguity, institutional necessity, bad behavior, coercion, intrinsic goodness, extrinsic enforcement, such vagueness is load-bearing.
Once everything fits under “crooked paths,” nothing can be cleanly judged. You have for years now somehow manipulated ideas to always enforce your interpretation of prophets, scriptures, and church, and no one else is going to make it to the celestial because they have no temple, it just doesn't land anymore. The reason Tolkien landed here is because we finally have a breath of fresh air without being worried about being hijacked, or manipulated, or judged erroneously, or even at all, but just a good old exploration and learning event. Remember, no one here is even saying Tolkien got anything right or that he is the last word on anything either. It isn't about that at all. That's THE point.

Philo. Read Spiritual Warfare. By Jed McKenna.

Seriously.

Spiritual Warfare issues a damning and irrefutable indictment of its own audience and genre, putting spirituality and religion themselves on trial. A terrible crime is being committed against humanity, a crime of oppression and subjugation far beyond Orwell's 1984. We are the victims of this crime, but we are also its perpetrators. Our motive is fear, our sin is ignorance, and the chain in which we enslave ourselves is belief. "Belief means not wanting to know what is true." -Friedrich Nietzsche Spiritual Warfare is a book for those who do want to know; people who want to escape from their dark asylum and experience a direct and authentic spirituality; people for whom it's time to look, to think, to know, and -- at long last -- to put away childish things.

Oh my gosh! That DOES sound like a book I have to read, thanks for the suggestion!

[Whiskey]

Philo. Read Spiritual Warfare. By Jed McKenna.

Seriously.

Oh my gosh! That DOES sound like a book I have to read, thanks for the suggestion!

Right up your alley. Don't research it before you read it. Just soak it up raw. No warning. Just go.

[Philo Sofee]

Oh my gosh! That DOES sound like a book I have to read, thanks for the suggestion!

Right up your alley. Don't research it before you read it. Just soak it up raw. No warning. Just go.

yep. Is it one I can safely suggest to Dan Peterson?

[Whiskey]

Right up your alley. Don't research it before you read it. Just soak it up raw. No warning. Just go.

yep. Is it one I can safely suggest to Dan Peterson?

You can safely suggest it. And he will not read it. Not many people will read it. I think you will.

[Limnor]

Wow I really missed a lot by only coming around periodically.

I, for one, am greatly pleased that you've stayed and participated (and how!) for so long this time around. I don't think I really appreciated your previous personas.

I appreciate that, truly. I think you’re probably right that earlier versions of me were more guarded—and maybe more performative than I realized at the time. My first iteration was at Beliefnet in the 1999 timeframe—moksha posted there even way back then. There was a bit of an interruption in my online presence following 9-11 and a three-year sea tour.

Back then I felt like I had to defend a position rather than explore a question, and scripture-only engagement was both exhausting and even constricting, I wasn’t really being myself even though my approach was sincere. Maybe there is an equivalence there worth exploring—maybe any revealed religion results in self-pressure to spread the word without having the self-awareness to realize how heavy-handed that approach can appear.

Over the years I’ve grown less convinced that people can be argued into faith. If anything, I’m more persuaded that whatever “drawing to Christ” happens is not something anyone can produce—the biblical model is that Jesus calls His own. What remains for me is a kind of responsibility to speak honestly about how I understand Jesus as I encounter him in the text, without trying to stand between anyone else and God in the process.

That’s probably why this iteration feels different. For the previous two iterations here at DM (from about 2005-2008 and 2019-2023 or so—don’t hold me to those dates, I don’t remember the exact timeframes) after having decided not to post at Beliefnet anymore, I had decided not to evangelize at all—keeping my own faith system to myself and learn as much as I could about the LDS faith and the Book of Mormon. There is a certain feeling of being held to an impossible standard while sharing—I think you have indicated something similar when you said you didn’t want to break any rules. I still feel that way occasionally but I also realize the rules are generally arbitrary and no one has authority over me anyway. It’s been particularly fun to dismiss that feeling and play with the false sense of authority that seems to sometimes rear its head. It was during those two previous iterations that I seriously developed my theory but had never fully completed it. I still haven’t committed it all to paper but have a fairly extensive sketch drawn out.

This iteration seems to have brought it all together—I’m less interested in “winning,” and more interested in clarity; clarity of what I believe but mostly only if asked, clarity in my theory and understanding of the Book of Mormon and Mormon thought, and understanding more fully the personal application of Mormon faith and its effects on its adherents.

It’s been good to explore that in this iteration, without feeling like every thought has to be a perfect. So thank you—for the welcome, and for the patience with the evolution—and with the length of this exposition…