On Testimony, Confirmation Bias, and Belief

[Limnor]

This is an interesting thought—it sounds like an iteration that as discipline is on a sliding scale as compared to influence rather than error, then obedience—not truth—is the value needing protected.

Church discipline for apostasy is interesting in how it functions at the highest level, when one’s actual membership is on the line. A member can be excommunicated in a church court for a variety of moral sins—such as adultery, theft, assault, murder, and the like—but when it comes to doctrinal disagreements, one is not disciplined simply for holding or expressing contrary views. Rather, discipline occurs for failing to stop expressing those views or for refusing to disavow them.

The process generally works like this: a member attracts enough negative attention for a particular doctrinal opinion or historical interpretation that leadership comes to see it as damaging to or incompatible with the church. That member is then called in by local leadership—either on their own initiative or at the direction of leaders in Salt Lake—and is instructed to cease expressing the views in question.

If the member persists, he or she is summoned before a church court and tried, not for the substance of the beliefs themselves, but for failing to follow the direction given by church leaders. Attempts by the member to argue that their views are valid or well-supported are not permitted, because the charge is disobedience rather than doctrinal error. This structure allows lay leadership to avoid having to defend or formally articulate the church’s position on the disputed issue during the proceedings.

So discipline isn’t about whether a claim is true, but about whether one will stop saying it? I see—this allows truth to be screened without ever having to adjudicate the information.

[malkie]

Note: Church leaders who are supposedly under divine inspiration and guidance may misjudge, but some members feel that they generally do a pretty good job.

Question: Is damning with faint praise a form of criticism?

[Dr. Sunstoned]

At church, that is pretty much the case. The reason being, I think, is that church is a congregation of ALL the saints and a place for edification and strengthening testimony and desire to live the basic principles of the gospel.

The meat is available at/in other venues. I've taken advantage of partaking. Others don't. That's fine.

Regards,
MG

What are other venues?

[malkie]

At church, that is pretty much the case. The reason being, I think, is that church is a congregation of ALL the saints and a place for edification and strengthening testimony and desire to live the basic principles of the gospel.

The meat is available at/in other venues. I've taken advantage of partaking. Others don't. That's fine.

Regards,
MG

What are other venues?

As I recall, non-church meetings and classes were, if not banned, at least severely frowned upon.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

So discipline isn’t about whether a claim is true, but about whether one will stop saying it? I see—this allows truth to be screened without ever having to adjudicate the information.

Bingo. Lock step obedience is the crux of the matter. That is the first great commandment, and the second is like un to it, that it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true.

What is true or not has no bearing at all.

[MG 2.0]

At church, that is pretty much the case. The reason being, I think, is that church is a congregation of ALL the saints and a place for edification and strengthening testimony and desire to live the basic principles of the gospel.

The meat is available at/in other venues. I've taken advantage of partaking. Others don't. That's fine.

Regards,
MG

What are other venues?

Back in the day, for my generation, it was Sunstone Magazine and Conferences, Dialogue Journal for Mormon Thought. Books such as Fawn Brodie's and Approaches to the Book of Mormon etc., etc.

All of these were available to those that sought them out. Nowadays it's more online sorts of materials, essays, podcasts, etc.

I think it's reasonable to keep Sunday church meetings just the way they are, where members of all stripes can 'worship' without anything getting in the way.

Regards,
MG

[Dr. Sunstoned]

What are other venues?

Back in the day, for my generation, it was Sunstone Magazine and Conferences, Dialogue Journal for Mormon Thought. Books such as Fawn Brodie's and Approaches to the Book of Mormon etc., etc.

All of these were available to those that sought them out. Nowadays it's more online sorts of materials, essays, podcasts, etc.

I think it's reasonable to keep Sunday church meetings just the way they are, where members of all stripes can 'worship' without anything getting in the way.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for the reply. These are venues that I have also been involved with, but they are not "official" church offerings. As far as I know, the church has no program (or intention) to move members beyond the very basic, sanitized correlated materials.

[MG 2.0]

Back in the day, for my generation, it was Sunstone Magazine and Conferences, Dialogue Journal for Mormon Thought. Books such as Fawn Brodie's and Approaches to the Book of Mormon etc., etc.

All of these were available to those that sought them out. Nowadays it's more online sorts of materials, essays, podcasts, etc.

I think it's reasonable to keep Sunday church meetings just the way they are, where members of all stripes can 'worship' without anything getting in the way.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for the reply. These are venues that I have also been involved with, but they are not "official" church offerings. As far as I know, the church has no program (or intention) to move members beyond the very basic, sanitized correlated materials.

Well, they haven't in my lifetime.

I don't expect them to and I don't expect they will.

From what I remember of your postings on this board, you teach at UVU. Cool.

We're in the same neck of the woods if that is so.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

Back in the day, for my generation, it was Sunstone Magazine and Conferences, Dialogue Journal for Mormon Thought. Books such as Fawn Brodie's and Approaches to the Book of Mormon etc., etc.

All of these were available to those that sought them out. Nowadays it's more online sorts of materials, essays, podcasts, etc.

I think it's reasonable to keep Sunday church meetings just the way they are, where members of all stripes can 'worship' without anything getting in the way.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for the reply. These are venues that I have also been involved with, but they are not "official" church offerings. As far as I know, the church has no program (or intention) to move members beyond the very basic, sanitized correlated materials.

Not only are these "venues" not official church offerings - but speculative, unorthodox, even apostate ideas are discussed. The authors of the articles, and the presenters at associated events are not necessarily LDS. In fact, it's not uncommon for Sunstone Conferences, for example, to have presentations from excommunicated LDS, apostles of the CoC, organizers of ecumenical fora, and leaders of polygamous sects of Mormonism.

For me and apostates like me, a Sunstone Conference is a great way to come in contact with a wide variety of philosophies, but also to meet in real life some of the thought leaders in Mormonism.

I think it's great that our resident apologist is open minded enough to recommend these venues. I wonder if they are now advertised on LDS chapel bulletin boards, so that members who would like some meat can find it.

"More Than One Way to Mormon" FTW! I feel confident that Linsey Hansen Park would be happy with such an endorsement.

[malkie]

I forgot to mention: at least one of our illustrious board members has presented at Sunstone!