You treat an oscilloscope wave as a “crooked path becoming straight,” while Marcus has objected by saying it’s merely a time-based measurement where no straightening, destination, or moral progression exists—so the metaphor imports meaning (and even divine oversight) that the data itself does not support.
Is this an accurate summary, Marcus?
Ah, stuck on the oscilloscope metaphor are we? Sure, and oscilloscope is "time based' measurement tool. The only point I'm making using the comparison with a horizontal wave seen on an oscilloscope screen is that it represents...well, I've spent enough time describing it.
The wave represents the human experience.
I suppose that I'm importing my own meaning from what I've observed looking at an ocilloscope screen. That's all okey dokey in my book. For nit pickers? Maybe not so much.
Point of interest. When I was a kid my brother and I would go into UCLA to the Brain Lab and the Neuroscience Institute (of whatever it was called) and watch our dad measure brain waves on cats that had electrodes implanted into their brains. He was working with a government grant doing sleep studies. It was pretty cool.
In a certain sense because of the Fall of Adam the world is in need of redemption/repair. That comes through the life, teachings, and Infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ. We simply see it differently in a few key areas. Other than those, we're on the same page! Jesus is the key to salvation and exaltation (heaven).
Article of Faith #11:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Regards,
MG
I understand the LDS doctrine regarding the fall—and yes, I’ll say again you can believe whatever you want. What we are exploring here is how deep the damage of the fall truly was.
And what that "damage" involved, right? This would be foundational to how you might view the "how deep" part.
I agree with those that point to Adam and Eve's transgression as resulting in a world of choices between good and evil. Back to 'crookedness'. Fractal design with patterns that have meaning. Having to discern 'how much' good or how much evil makes one good or bad, mistaken or 'right' (Sorites).
But it wasn't the creation itself that was "broken". What God creates is perfect within the sphere and for what purposes He creates it. My opinion anyway.
God don't make mistakes. (tee shirt from when I was growing up)
But He did create a world of contraries and opposition. That is rather obvious, at least in my opinion. That's why the church/gospel has critics!
I agree with those that point to Adam and Eve's transgression as resulting in a world of choices between good and evil.
Maybe we can explore this:
Created good doesn’t mean never broken. Paul seems to describe it as having fallen because of a choice to disobey.
Paul describes it as God’s good work, but it was subjected and now groans for repair. That’s different from a world whose “crookedness” is simply the way it was always meant to be.
It is kind of frustrating when certain folks go all nit picky and can't see the forest for the trees.
I had the below as my predictions:
1) You’re over-literalizing a simple metaphor.
2) This is “ivory tower” nit-picking.
3) Critics always want to strip God out of the picture.
4) We’re just talking past each other.
5) That’s not what I’m saying at all.
#2 wins!
I’m here for the music, you’re welcome to keep staring at the wires. Predicting I'd call out nit picking while you're busy nit picking the metaphor is a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think?
I guess the best we could say, and agree on, is that we're both consistent.
When you lean into the "damage" of the Fall, a Latter-day Saint would say this was a necessary step for human progression, essentially turning the "fracture" into a blueprint for experience. Which includes elements from some of the 'templates' for exploration I've brought up.
I am commanding too much of the conversation again. It was chugging along with more participants before I stepped back in after being away for a few days.
I’m here for the music, you’re welcome to keep staring at the wires.
I actually laughed at that—but someone has to look at the wires, or we end up calling distortion “harmony.”
Where we still differ is that you’re describing the “damage” of the Fall as necessary, while Paul seems to treat it as a brokenness needing redemption.
MG:
Unless, that is, and/or until nature takes its course and takes us out either sooner or later. Those of us having this conversation are still here and traveling that crooked path with hopes of straightening things out before we're taken out.
I am rather enjoying all the crookedness and learning due to it, not trying to get onto a boring straight line. Why would that possibly be anyone's goal? I see the crooked line as the Road less traveled and therefore vastly superior and to be the more sought after.... not something to leave behind for a straight road.
A couple of points (I'm skipping MG's responses which Marcus handled very well, they were quite on point and not "all about MG" but MG's use of math ideas which don't add anything to what he's already said):
1) One way "crooked" could mean something other than evil. Insular religions and essentially any authoritarian structure becomes heavily biased towards their own superiority. Information vacuums ensure that delusions of grandeur go uncontested and reinforced. And so, religious people, especially, face harsh feedback from the real world when they fail. If they are God's chosen, why did that other kid do better on that test, or win that race?
2) Physic's Guy's geology might be optimized -- sure, it might be, but it's quite unfalsifiable to say that it is optimized. I think it's pretty easy to imagine that at some point in history, a physical process could have gone differently to save a few children or animals. Newton's version of deism even allowed for angels to swoop in and make corrections, I'd say there are some glaring misses.
"if you can't admire Joe Biden as a person then it's probably, you got a problem." -- Lindsey Graham
Just for fun and to blow Res Ipsa's mind a wee bit more here is something fun to do for kicks and giggles. Go to Gemini AI. Open up an inquiry dialogue box. Type in:
How is symmetry in nature related to the Sorites Paradox and fractal geometry?
Be entertained.
Bringing in symmetry in nature opens up more lines for discussion and/or thought as it relates to the OP and some of the other 'flavors of the day' I've dropped in along the way. I know that drives some literalists crazy but someone like Philo might find it kind of interesting.
I'm not necessarily pointing at the 'theory of God', as much as to get some folks to step outside of any kind of fundamentalist thinking that might lurk in the undercurrents of the mind.
Those trained in some professions vs. others may find it difficult to widen their horizons and be prone to being overcome with really really really mixed metaphor syndrome, or the like.
