A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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I Have Questions
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A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by I Have Questions »

Here is what Peterson thinks of it…
Professor Harper predicts that Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet will replace Brodie’s famous biography as the interpretation of Joseph Smith favored by people who reject Joseph’s religious claims.  However, Dr. Harper finds serious fault with Dr. Turner’s book, especially in two regards:  One is its treatment of plural marriage.  The other is its discussion of the witnesses and of the translation of the Book of Mormon.  I will focus here on the latter.  I could not possibly agree more strongly with Harper’s criticism than I do.  I was simply astonished at Professor Turner’s casual dismissal of the relevant historical evidence…
It is worth noting at this point that what Peterson classes as “historical evidence” is actually “what a few of Joseph Smith’s family and friends said”. We all know witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. It deteriorates further when those witnesses have close ties to the person they are seeking to support with their testimony. And it deteriorates further still when their testimony is gained in a group and coordinated fashion by an individual with a vested interest in it. Professor Turner it seems, prefers actual historical evidence, the kind that can be tested. And Turner is a believing Presbyterian, so cannot be dismissed as an atheist, nor as an anti-Mormon.

Here is what Harper says in his review, as quoted by Peterson
Turner rejects the evidence left by those who said Joseph translated the Book of Mormon without the use of books or manuscripts. “Joseph consulted the King James Bible during the translation,” Turner asserts. All the eyewitnesses of translation ascribed the phenomenon to revelation, whereas people who did not watch Joseph Smith translate concluded that “plagiarism from the Old and New Testaments” was the only possible option. Turner favors the interpretation of those who did not witness the translation.
He interprets the evidence to mean “that Joseph did not have golden plates.” Turner grants that the people closest to Joseph believed he had plates but says that because “he did not show his family and friends the plates, there aren’t witnesses in the ordinary sense of the term.” Knowing that Turner knows the historical record well, I initially thought he meant that as of 1827, Joseph had not shown the plates to anyone. Page 39 reads, “Other men stated that they experienced visions of the plates, but Joseph never let anyone examine them in an ordinary way.” I assumed that the never in that sentence was an overclaim that meant Joseph had not yet let anyone examine them, and that in a subsequent chapter, in chronological order, Turner would tell me about the Book of Mormon witnesses, eight of whom said Joseph put the plates into their hands to heft. But I was misreading and misunderstanding.
Turner meant that Joseph never showed anyone the plates—never ever. He simply dismisses the historical record related to the eight witnesses with the word ordinary. All of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon plates only saw them in extraordinary ways, so not really.
Turner phrasing the witness testimony as some people, close to Joseph, believed they saw or handled the plates, but that those experiences and statements do not clear the bar of being ordinary historical proof of the existence of actual golden plates. And he’s correct in treating such statements with skepticism.

Turner, apparently, treats plural marriage in the book as central to, and a historically documented part of Smith’s life as Church Leader. He notes that Smith practiced plural marriage behind his wife’s back. That he pressurised some young women and their families into marriage agreements. And that Smith married already married women who had living husbands. All of which is well known, and well supported by historical evidence.

Peterson closes with the dismissive
I commend Steve Harper’s review to your attention.  I’m ambivalent about John Turner’s book.
There’s that confirmation bias kicking in. Because Turner doesn’t bow and scrape to Peterson’s obsession with glorifying the witnesses as some kind of unimpeachable and definitive panacea in proving his lifelong belief true, Peterson won’t even look at it (petulant behaviour of the kind being exhibited by the orange gentleman currently demolishing a big White House in Washington and writing his name on all sorts of other buildings). But that’s the opposite of what a serious defender of the faith should be doing. Peterson should, and could, but probably won’t, spend some time defending the faith by showing where and how, specifically Turner is incorrect. But he won’t because he can’t. Harper’s review shows him that.

Other people seem to be less "ambivalent" about Turner's book
“Joseph Smith jumps off the pages as an audacious, visionary, and often reckless character. Turner has expertly portrayed Smith as an endlessly complex figure who can no more be tamed in death than he could in life.”—Patrick Q. Mason
https://johngturner.com

I will acquire Turner’s book, and I will read it. Has anyone here read it?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by MsJack »

Turner was asked about the witnesses at his 2024 MHA presentation and he made a pretty funny comment about how they're almost all Smiths and Whitmers and that's apparently supposed to be very convincing. I'm probably badly butchering what he said, but it was something like, "I'll remain unconvinced even if twenty more Smiths and Whitmers testify to it."
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by I Have Questions »

MsJack wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 3:08 pm
Turner was asked about the witnesses at his 2024 MHA presentation and he made a pretty funny comment about how they're almost all Smiths and Whitmers and that's apparently supposed to be very convincing. I'm probably badly butchering what he said, but it was something like, "I'll remain unconvinced even if twenty more Smiths and Whitmers testify to it."
Isn't that a play on the Mark Twain quote? “And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but "hefted" them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.”
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by MsJack »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 3:14 pm
MsJack wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 3:08 pm
Turner was asked about the witnesses at his 2024 MHA presentation and he made a pretty funny comment about how they're almost all Smiths and Whitmers and that's apparently supposed to be very convincing. I'm probably badly butchering what he said, but it was something like, "I'll remain unconvinced even if twenty more Smiths and Whitmers testify to it."
Isn't that a play on the Mark Twain quote? “And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but "hefted" them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.”
YES! And come to think of it, I believe he mentioned Mark Twain when he said it. Thank you!

But yeah, he basically said the witnesses aren't very convincing because it's a statement signed almost entirely by the members of two families. It's not like he isn't aware of them.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by malkie »

Turner rejects the evidence left by those who said Joseph translated the Book of Mormon without the use of books or manuscripts.
The "evidence" would mean something if Joseph were being observed continuously both before and during translation sessions. Who can tell what "books or manuscripts" Joseph consulted while not being observed. Otherwise, to me, it's very weak "evidence" to say that he didn't consult any documents.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by I Have Questions »

malkie wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 3:33 pm
Turner rejects the evidence left by those who said Joseph translated the Book of Mormon without the use of books or manuscripts.
The "evidence" would mean something if Joseph were being observed continuously both before and during translation sessions. Who can tell what "books or manuscripts" Joseph consulted while not being observed. Otherwise, to me, it's very weak "evidence" to say that he didn't consult any documents.
Well we know for a fact that Joseph did consult “books or manuscripts” because of the verbatim KJV Bible content. Whether he consulted more than the KJV Bible, such as the Pilgrim’s Progress when “translating” the Abinadi story, is not known.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Some reviews that are sure to make the Afore’s blood boil:
"This one is a ride. To the story of America's most famous prophet John Turner brings a vigorous narrative style informed by the most recent scholarship. Even if you know Joseph Smith's story well, this book is
necessary reading."
-MATTHEW BOWMAN, Claremont Graduate University
"John Turner has provided us a Joseph Smith for the current age. This biography successfully fleshes out the Mormon prophet's life, mind, and
environment, painting a picture that is both riveting and a reckoning."
-BENJAMIN E. PARK, author of American Zion: A New History of Mormonism®
"Unlike many who have written about Smith, Turner comes neither to praise Smith nor to bury him. To the contrary, he wants to bring him back to life, for our reading pleasure and for our scholarly enlightenment. He has written a classic —spritely, fun, and ultimately persuasive."
—MARK OPPENHEIMER, editor of Arc: Religion, Politics, Et Cetera
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Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by Chap »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 3:42 pm
... we know for a fact that Joseph did consult “books or manuscripts” because of the verbatim KJV Bible content.
That is the clincher. Smith copied extracts from other texts, verbatim or altered, into the text he presented as the Book of Mormon.

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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by Kishkumen »

There are historical conclusions we draw based on reliable and corroborated eyewitness testimony. There are reasonable conclusions to draw based on the evidence we can see, even if we have no eyewitnesses. In the case of Joseph Smith's use of the KJV in his translation of the Book of Mormon, most historians are going to conclude based on the evidence of the Book of Mormon itself that it was produced with some form of use of the KJV. I would also say that the number of LDS historians who oppose this view is most likely smaller than the total number of LDS historians. In other words, I would guarantee that there is a number of LDS historians, good ones, who accept that Joseph Smith used the KJV, somehow, in the production of the Book of Mormon.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by I Have Questions »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 5:58 pm
There are historical conclusions we draw based on reliable and corroborated eyewitness testimony. There are reasonable conclusions to draw based on the evidence we can see, even if we have no eyewitnesses. In the case of Joseph Smith's use of the KJV in his translation of the Book of Mormon, most historians are going to conclude based on the evidence of the Book of Mormon itself that it was produced with some form of use of the KJV. I would also say that the number of LDS historians who oppose this view is most likely smaller than the total number of LDS historians. In other words, I would guarantee that there is a number of LDS historians, good ones, who accept that Joseph Smith used the KJV, somehow, in the production of the Book of Mormon.
Ruling out the idiotic notion of a “ghost committee” copying verbatim parts of the KJV Bible in the spirit world at some point during the 17th century into a pre translated manuscript of some plates that they had also translated, before transmitting that to Joseph Smith whilst making Joseph think he was doing actual translating himself….what reasonable alternatives to Joseph or someone of his group, plagiarising a KJV Bible they had to hand, have you heard LDS historians put forward?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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