God can write straight with crooked lines.

[MG 2.0]

Oh I had quite forgotten about that method, thank you. So really it’s simple but you have to look real hard to find it.

But we are fortunate that MG pointed us to these sources. Ordinary members and non-members may have to look hard, because the church not only fails to mention them, but actively counsels members against using them. One piece of advice that's sometimes given is not to look to critics for information about the church. Of course, that's a bit of a double-edged sword.

OK. Sorry guys. The misspelling of Dialogue is driving me nuts.

There, I can sleep.

Believe it or not, many from my generation kinda grew up with this stuff. Maybe it was a Southern California thing.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I’ll be honest—the thing that bothers me most isn’t disagreement, it’s what I see as people speaking falsely about God.

By the way, that’s one thing we would have in common.

Regards,
MG

Ok—if we agree that speaking falsely about God is wrong, I don’t see how Joseph’s use of God to justify secrecy and relationships he knew would be rejected if disclosed—like marrying another man’s wife while he was away, among other things—can be reconciled.

[MG 2.0]

By the way, that’s one thing we would have in common.

Regards,
MG

Ok—if we agree that speaking falsely about God is wrong, I don’t see how Joseph’s use of God to justify secrecy and relationships he knew would be rejected if disclosed—like marrying another man’s wife while he was away, among other things—can be reconciled.

Latter-day Saints believe that the Restoration includes the restoration of all things from all dispensations.

https://mormonwiki.com/Dispensation

We also believe that God teaches correct principles and then lets men govern themselves. Are there exceptions? Possibly. But that would be in God’s wheelhouse of responsibility and action.

I don’t know how many and/or if you have listened to any LDS Conference talks. I would recommend that you listen to this one all the way through if you choose to and are able:

https://youtu.be/NiqP07UXq2E?si=mRgRjv1JTAyBLOh_

Also, one must remember (apparently polygamy is a large issue for you) that history is not a hard science. We have a mixed bag of polygamy records and practice. Literally volumes have been written.

Early polygamy is one of those ‘hard things’ that a person has to work out for themselves. Are there elements that are ‘shelf issues’ for me? Yes. Is polygamy and the way it was practiced and carried out perfect in every respect? No.

But I wouldn’t expect it to be.

What I would expect is that God was knowledgeable of what was going on and that He knew that as all things were restored there would be some hiccups. And there were.

God can write straight with crooked lines.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Ok—if we agree that speaking falsely about God is wrong, I don’t see how Joseph’s use of God to justify secrecy and relationships he knew would be rejected if disclosed—like marrying another man’s wife while he was away, among other things—can be reconciled.

Latter-day Saints believe that the Restoration includes the restoration of all things from all dispensations.

https://mormonwiki.com/Dispensation

Firstly, your link doesn't support the statement "Latter-day Saints believe that the Restoration includes the restoration of all things from all dispensations." It is instead a link to an explanation of the term Dispension as it relates to Mormonism. Putting that to one side, let's examine your assertion. Can you give an example of something that Jesus Christ taught, or practiced, which other Christian Religions no longer teach, or practice, that Joseph Smith or subsequent Prophets have now "restored"?

As a separate note. The SLC LDS teaches that 'The Restoration' is a term referring to Joseph restoring the ancient Church of Jesus Christ. But there was no ancient Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not organise a Church. He was a practicing Jew and he taught within Jewish synagogues and Jewish temples and within Judaism. So the legitimate ancient Church of Jesus Christ was/is Judaism. How can you restore something that either didn't exist, or still exists today?

[Limnor]

Nothing you’ve said actually answers the question, MG.

Appealing to restoration doesn’t explain how invoking God to authorize secrecy, deception, and polyandry is not false speech about God. Neither does saying God allowed it—that just places the fault with God and not with Joseph—which is exactly the problem that you don’t seem to see. Yes, God allows human error, but God letting men govern themselves doesn’t answer why Joseph misrepresented God. Even the appeal to restoration just introduces a new problem in that it misrepresents something as having to be restored without showing what was taught that is now lost—IHQ frames the problem better above.

Polygamy is only one of many issues—I get that you’ll try and invoke Sorites but the preponderance of evidence, culminating in the Book of Abraham and polygamy, should be addressed.

Saying “history is messy” or “records are mixed” does not address the record that shows Joseph denying polygamy publicly while practicing it privately and invoking God to require secrecy—there is nothing ambiguous about that action.

Saying God can write straight with crooked lines doesn’t do what you think it does. The question is about false representation of God—your metaphor just declares in advance that false-looking invocation cannot count as false. The result isn’t reconciliation, it’s just an exemption for Joseph.

So all of the above means that when you say you oppose people falsely representing God, what you mean is “except for Joseph.”

[Gadianton]

Oh, and the Gospel IS simple. Faith in Jesus, Repentance of sins, Gift of the Holy Ghost and endure to the end in righteousness.

Humans, however, have a tendency to travel the crooked road

And there it is. Finally, you correctly represent the messaging of your church. God writes with straight lines. Humans, being imperfect, write with crooked lines.

God writes with straight lines, not crooked lines.

Simple faith and repentance, not pseudo-Abrahamic tests giving wives and daughters to Joseph Smith as polygamous wives. ;) Now careful how you respond, lest you speak falsely about God and reap damnation unto your soul.

[MG 2.0]

Oh, and the Gospel IS simple. Faith in Jesus, Repentance of sins, Gift of the Holy Ghost and endure to the end in righteousness.

Humans, however, have a tendency to travel the crooked road

And there it is. Finally, you correctly represent the messaging of your church. God writes with straight lines. Humans, being imperfect, write with crooked lines.

God writes with straight lines, not crooked lines.

Simple faith and repentance, not pseudo-Abrahamic tests giving wives and daughters to Joseph Smith as polygamous wives. ;) Now careful how you respond, lest you speak falsely about God and reap damnation unto your soul.

Gadianton, 'crooked' refers to human perception and messy histories, not to God acting unjustly or deceitfully. God’s will and purposes remains straight, but are achieved through fallible agents and contingent events. He allows the chips to fall where they may (agency) but is able to bring about His purposes just the same.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Nothing you’ve said actually answers the question, MG.

Appealing to restoration doesn’t explain how invoking God to authorize secrecy, deception, and polyandry is not false speech about God. Neither does saying God allowed it—that just places the fault with God and not with Joseph—which is exactly the problem that you don’t seem to see. Yes, God allows human error, but God letting men govern themselves doesn’t answer why Joseph misrepresented God. Even the appeal to restoration just introduces a new problem in that it misrepresents something as having to be restored without showing what was taught that is now lost—IHQ frames the problem better above.

Polygamy is only one of many issues—I get that you’ll try and invoke Sorites but the preponderance of evidence, culminating in the Book of Abraham and polygamy, should be addressed.

Saying “history is messy” or “records are mixed” does not address the record that shows Joseph denying polygamy publicly while practicing it privately and invoking God to require secrecy—there is nothing ambiguous about that action.

Saying God can write straight with crooked lines doesn’t do what you think it does. The question is about false representation of God—your metaphor just declares in advance that false-looking invocation cannot count as false. The result isn’t reconciliation, it’s just an exemption for Joseph.

So all of the above means that when you say you oppose people falsely representing God, what you mean is “except for Joseph.”

This counters exactly the argument that Smith's crooked behavior furthered a god's straight line plans, and polygamy is just one example.

[MG 2.0]

Nothing you’ve said actually answers the question, MG.

Appealing to restoration doesn’t explain how invoking God to authorize secrecy, deception, and polyandry is not false speech about God. Neither does saying God allowed it—that just places the fault with God and not with Joseph—which is exactly the problem that you don’t seem to see. Yes, God allows human error, but God letting men govern themselves doesn’t answer why Joseph misrepresented God. Even the appeal to restoration just introduces a new problem in that it misrepresents something as having to be restored without showing what was taught that is now lost—IHQ frames the problem better above.

Polygamy is only one of many issues—I get that you’ll try and invoke Sorites but the preponderance of evidence, culminating in the Book of Abraham and polygamy, should be addressed.

Saying “history is messy” or “records are mixed” does not address the record that shows Joseph denying polygamy publicly while practicing it privately and invoking God to require secrecy—there is nothing ambiguous about that action.

Saying God can write straight with crooked lines doesn’t do what you think it does. The question is about false representation of God—your metaphor just declares in advance that false-looking invocation cannot count as false. The result isn’t reconciliation, it’s just an exemption for Joseph.

So all of the above means that when you say you oppose people falsely representing God, what you mean is “except for Joseph.”

The “straight” part refers to God’s intent and ultimate aim (to bring about maximal good consistent with real agency), while the “crooked lines” are the actual contingent, fallen, often incompetent or even vicious human paths that get taken along the way.

I don't think there are many people who know the history of Joseph Smith that will give him a 'free pass' to sin. Whatever sin/transgressions (there's a difference) he may have committed are between him and his Savior/God.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Whatever sin/transgressions (there's a difference) he may have committed are between him and his Savior/God.

And also between millions of people who diligently and sincerely study Joseph's history to find out for themselves if Mormonism it true, and whether to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing and sacrifice their time, talents and resources. Right, Fibber?