The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

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I Have Questions
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Re: The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

Post by I Have Questions »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Jan 23, 2026 8:01 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Jan 23, 2026 6:45 pm
I don’t really understand what Jeff is driving at. The abstract for the appendices (which Interpreter has treated as a separate “article”) states Who is using the KJV Bible to try to explain any perceived parallels between the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses. Jeff seems to be attempting to disprove a straw man of his own making. When the answer is, as you allude to, the fact that Joseph produced both. Hasn’t Jeff got anything better to do than spend hours and hours and hours on this non scholarly apologetic nonsense?
Is Lindsay trying to ignore the similarities arising from Smith's plagiarism of the KJV Bible? If I recall correctly, he admitted half the book of Moses had to be eliminated from consideration, because that half already matched the Book of Mormon AND the kjv, further supporting the claim that Smith plagiarized.

I don't think his argument is helping his cause the way he thinks it is.
Here is his lead in line to article (Part 1)
One of the most puzzling aspects of the Book of Mormon is the way it seems to draw upon specific language in the Book of Moses.
I don’t know anyone who views any similarity between the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses, let alone considers it “puzzling”. Is he responding to a piece of work a critic has done? Because if he’s quietly trying to explain and excuse the plagiarism of the KJV Bible in the Book of Mormon through this verbose but vacuous drivel, he’s going to get laughed out of town.

His outpouring is chock full of intellectual dishonesty. Jeff doesn’t consider anything outside of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses being exactly what the Church holds them up to be. And he cherry picks “parrallels” that fit the narrative he wants to spin, ignoring anything and everything else. Jeff is doing research the way a raccoon shops for groceries—only grabbing the shiny stuff and ignoring everything nutritious.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

Post by Physics Guy »

From a quick look at just the first page of the first article, it doesn't seem to me that this article is even trying to be apologetic. It just takes for granted the Mormon assumption that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses are miraculous modern translations of real ancient texts. For most audiences that would be a bizarre starting point, but this is Interpreter. People can have specialised journals dedicated to whatever suppositions they want.

A Journal of the Flat Earth Society might well publish an article that demonstrates that the edge of the world must be octagonal rather than circular. Within the weird premises of flat earthism, this could even be a landmark article applying insightful reasoning to make a convincing case for an initially surprising conclusion. I see Lindsay's article as aiming to be something like that, not to convince any non-Mormons.

The introductory paragraphs explicitly say what the article is trying to do, listing several goals. Only the last of the goals is apologetic:
Jeff Lindsay wrote:[The article's conclusions] ... can provide stand-alone evidence for the ancient origins and authenticity of both the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses.
And I think that even this apologetic goal is really kind of an easy one, if one considers that "provide evidence" is not at all the same as "provide sufficient evidence". If Lindsay demonstrates that the Book of Mormon seems to draw on the Book of Moses, then this really is evidence for both texts being ancient, in the Bayesian sense that an ancient Jewish Book of Moses would be more likely to be referenced in an ancient Jewish Book of Mormon than any two random modern texts would be likely to refer to each other. A Book of Mormon that subtly but clearly alludes to the Book of Moses makes the two texts as we have them slightly more consistent with the hypothesis that both are ancient Jewish texts.

On the other hand, of course, even if Lindsay makes his case about Moses-Mormon intertextuality then I as a skeptic will only say, "Hey, now, that was a nice touch by Smith, slipping in some allusions to his background mythology like Tolkien mentioning something in The Lord of the Rings that only appears at length in The Silmarillion." Since this would mean that Smith would have to have been a better artist than I had previously thought him to be, and better artists are a priori less likely, I might have to adjust my Bayesian likelihood that Smith was a fraud from 99.9999% down to only 99.9995%. That would still mean that Lindsay had "provided evidence" against fraud, technically.

A change in the fourth decimal place would hardly be worth mentioning even as the last goal in a list, but how much difference evidence makes depends on one's starting point. If my estimate of how likely the Mormon texts are to be ancient goes from 0.0001% to 0.0005%, that's a five-fold increase, and Bayesian inference is multiplicative that way. To somebody with a much higher prior likelihood for the texts to be ancient, Lindsay's point might well make a more significant difference.

So there's my lance duly broken in defence of Jeff Lindsay. As a matter of fact I expect that reading his article would not even slightly weaken my belief that Smith made up both texts, but rather further strengthen it, by showing that Smith wrote the Book of Mormon with some of the ideas of the Book of Abraham already there in his mind. It's not at all uncommon for authors to have early ideas that only come to light in their later books, because it took a while for the author to learn how to make their juvenile visions publishable. I'd see Lindsay's "intertextuality" as making the Mormon texts fit this common pattern more closely.

I still wouldn't say that the article is dishonest at all. It's just assuming Mormon beliefs, in a Mormon journal. Intertextuality between Mormon and Moses is obviously not puzzling at all if the same person wrote them, but it is indeed puzzling if one assumes that both texts are ancient. Proposing that the ancient Nephites had a version of the Book of Moses is a reasonable enough way to resolve that puzzle within Mormon assumptions. I don't see Lindsay claiming anything more than this. He doesn't go out of his way to acknowledge that non-Mormons won't give a damn, but once again, it's Interpreter. Articles in a flat earth journal won't always waste lines talking about how round-earthers think.
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Re: The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

Post by I Have Questions »

The article is intellectually dishonest. That may be by design. That may be the nature of the standards required for entry into the Interpreter Foundations weekly Friday blog piece. But that it is by design does not mean it isn’t intellectually dishonest.
Intellectual dishonesty is the enemy of intellectual humility. As Perry Tam puts it in Entrepreneur magazine, intellectual honesty “means always seeking the truth regardless of whether or not it agrees with your own personal beliefs.” It’s not fudging, for whatever reason.
Jeff only seeks “evidence” in a paradigm that fits what he wants to believe about the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses. It’s inherently intellectually dishonest on that basis. I’d imagine all of the Friday blog pieces that Interpreter puts out are equally guilty of that. Deliberately so.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

Post by Equality »

Seeing mopologists cite parallels between two different works authored by Joseph Smith reminds me of when John Fogerty got sued by his record label, which owned the Creedence Clearwater Revival catalog, because they said his solo work sounded too much like their copyrighted CCR tunes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogerty_v._Fantasy,_Inc.
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Re: The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

Post by Equality »

Chap wrote:
Sat Jan 10, 2026 4:57 pm
msnobody wrote:
Sat Jan 10, 2026 3:22 pm
Satan operates as he has from the beginning.

Didn’t there used to be a saying of Joseph Smith that other religions or preachers were clanking cymbals? I tried to find that online a few years ago, but couldn’t.
This sounds like the words in 1 Corinthians, KJV:
1 Corinthians 13

1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Try searching "tinkling" rather than "clanking"?
Hugh Nibley wrote a book called Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass, published by the now-defunct FARMS

https://www.amazon.com/Tinkling-Cymbals ... 0875795161
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Re: The latest Interpreter article is intellectually dishonest...

Post by Rivendale »

Equality wrote:
Sat Jan 24, 2026 12:34 pm
Seeing mopologists cite parallels between two different works authored by Joseph Smith reminds me of when John Fogerty got sued by his record label, which owned the Creedence Clearwater Revival catalog, because they said his solo work sounded too much like their copyrighted CCR tunes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogerty_v._Fantasy,_Inc.
And I think it was only the last few years he was finally able to perform all of them without the fear of being sued.
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