Something Is Seriously Wrong With the Bible Belt (And No One Wants to Say It)

[ajax18]

Whatever happened to salvation the free gift of God?

If salvation were a free gift from God, everyone would go to heaven, even the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. Yet we know that not everyone goes to the Celestial kingdom. Nothing is free. I believe everyone who came to earth will be resurrected if that's what you mean by "salvation," but everyone who is resurrected had to choose to come to mortality in order to become eligible for that gift from God. Satan and his followers will never get a body nor will they ever be permitted to reenter the Celestial kingdom.

[ajax18]

An atheist world view can hugely increase one's sense of wonder at what a human being is -

I respect atheists who choose to do the right thing in spite of believing that it's not in their eternal best interests. I think that shows a level of spiritual maturity.

But I personally am much happier since I quit rolling around in the dirt of this world and began to live more worthy of having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, as Elder Ucthdorf admonished us to do. Everything has been better since I chose to believe again.

[Chap]

I personally am much happier since I quit rolling around in the dirt of this world

Could you give us a general idea of what it was you used to do that could be characterised as 'rolling around in the dirt'?

I do agree of course that it is better to live life as far as possible so that you do not feel ashamed of your conduct. But different people have different ideas of what is shameful. Hence my question.

[ajax18]

Could you give us a general idea of what it was you used to do that could be characterised as 'rolling around in the dirt'?

Trying to find happiness in earthly things rather than spiritual things. I didn't understand what I was missing by failing to recognize the presence of God in my life. People can be in very unhappy situations and still manage to feel joy when their hearts are tuned in to God. I'm not saying I don't want physical happiness. I hope for it in the future. But I no longer obsess about the fact that the physical world is imperfect right now. The fact that God is willing to visit us in our afflictions and even offer his strength at times to help us endure it is something I'll never take for granted again. Just knowing that God can and will turn all things both unfortunate and fortunate for our eternal good inasmuch as we follow the plan is the ultimate feeling of peace.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

38,000 references to Trump so far. In the Epstein files. And yet, this is the man that most white, southern, Christian conservatives revere as chosen by their god.

Yes. Something is seriously wrong with the Bible Belt.

- Doc

[Gunnar]

Those who decide incorrectly that Christianity is not true, do so because they lack the faith necessary to gain this spiritual knowledge. You don't get this spiritual knowledge by wandering off so far away from God that you can barely catch a glimmer of the light of His spirit. You don't recognize these truths by demanding evidence. You recognize these truths as you follow Jesus's commandment to be believing and not of little faith. Jesus says in John 7:17, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." If you don't have a testimony, perhaps you weren't willing to do what it took to gain a testimony.

I suspect you know me well enough from reading my posts that I don't entirely discount the value and efficacy of faith. Faith can be an effective motivator for either good or evil and I think that evidence plus faith is worth more and can be more effective and satisfying than evidence and reason alone. I agree with Einstein that evidence and reason without faith is lame, but faith without evidence and reason is blind and, I firmly believe, utterly worthless and will ultimately lead to folly. Faith should always be tempered by evidence and reason--not the other way around! In other words, evidence and reason alone always has some significant value. Without any real, supporting, objective evidence and reason, one has only illusion, no matter how strong one's subjective faith or "testimony."

[Gunnar]

38,000 references to Trump so far. In the Epstein files. And yet, this is the man that most white, southern, Christian conservatives revere as chosen by their god.

Yes. Something is seriously wrong with the Bible Belt.

- Doc

Amen!

[Chap]

I agree with Einstein that evidence and reason without faith is lame, but faith without evidence and reason is blind and, I firmly believe, utterly worthless and will ultimately lead to folly.

I don't think we have any fundamental conflict here. But I think one needs to be careful about the use of that quote in isolation. It certainly does not mean that an atheist scientist cannot do good science (which I certainly do not think you are asserting).

What Einstein says about the role of religion is limited to saying that the conviction that the universe operates on the basis of rules that can be discovered through the use of rationality is not something that science can justify by itself, but comes from 'the sphere of religion', in that it is a conviction held by an individual that cannot be logically deduced from scientific facts. But it should be noted that you don't need to believe in any religion to have that conviction: it is one that practising scientists can acquire through the experience of over and over again finding that science works: if you study puzzling phenomena carefully enough and for long enough, there tends to be a way of making rational sense of how they come to be the way they are. Of course one can never tell what will happen with the next problem; but one does tend to end up feeling that if you can't find a rational pattern that is not because there isn't one, but because you haven't yet done enough science to find such a pattern.

See the detailed discussion here (from New Republic):

Einstein’s Famous Quote About Science and Religion Didn’t Mean What You Were Taught
The scientist actually offers no solace to believers

The quote in context makes that plain:

“Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

Note that the article cited also ontains some cogent criticisms (with which I tend to agree) of Einstein's ideas on this and related topics.

[Dr. Shades]

Their bigotry against others who don't share their economic status, race, religion or ethnicity only underscores their own inherent immorality and irrationality. Jesus would be ashamed of them!

Yes, but he'd also forgive them, which makes their bigotry passable. . . according to them.

[Chap]

Their bigotry against others who don't share their economic status, race, religion or ethnicity only underscores their own inherent immorality and irrationality. Jesus would be ashamed of them!

Yes, but he'd also forgive them, which makes their bigotry passable. . . according to them.

I'm not sure about the forgiving part. " When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"... and this is what happens to the people who refuse to help the poor and needy, and the stranger:

Matthew 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If I was a fervent ICE supporter who wanted to see poor people arriving illegally from a desperate life elsewhere thrown into jail and then deported, it might not be very comfortable standing there and hearing that said. Notice that the Son of Man does not say that none of this applies if the victims are lawbreakers: those in prison are explicitly included.