Who Killed Joseph Smith?

[Analytics]

In 2022, somebody by the name of Justin Griffin created a 3-hour documentary called “Who Killed Joseph Smith?” It has an IMDb rating of 7.2/10 with 24 reviews. It is in 2 parts and lasts for almost exactly 3 hours total.

You can watch it on Amazon, or watch it on YouTube

I searched for old threads about this, but didn’t find any. Has there been any discussion about it here?

I don’t know who Justin Griffin is and I’m hesitant to say anything about a movie I haven’t seen, but it appears that the entire “Becoming Brigham” project is a response to this film. I’m trying to figure out if Griffin’s movie makes some formidable claims that require something like Becoming Brigham, or if Peterson is just punching down.

[Res Ipsa]

I was not even in the state! 🥸

[Tom]

There’s been at least one thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=156985&p=2820424&hi ... n#p2820424

I mentioned concerns among apologists about the film in a post:

viewtopic.php?p=2830556#p2830556

[Gadianton]

If we're all supposed to give our personal answers, I'm saying it's Brigham Young and John Taylor.

Anyone who disagrees, bring your arguments to the contrary, but realize as you throw them into a pile that Sorites Paradox prevents that pile from ever becoming a heap.

[MG 2.0]

If we're all supposed to give our personal answers, I'm saying it's Brigham Young and John Taylor.

Anyone who disagrees, bring your arguments to the contrary, but realize as you throw them into a pile that Sorites Paradox prevents that pile from ever becoming a heap.

No need to add to any pile. God wouldn't have two people that were to later be His prophets on earth be the ones to kill the first prophet.

I'll go with that since we all are welcome to our own personal opinions. I probably won't have much more to say on that.

In my opinion, in this instance, you're dealing with what is for believers, a binary doctrinal/moral premise. On the other hand, if you're not a believer, then bring it on, Sorites!

I'll watch things from the outside looking in since I'm a believer.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Joseph (and Hyrum) were shot in a gun fight that took place in Carthage Jail. Local townspeople, fed up with Joseph’s shenanigans - he’d taken their daughters, their wives, their money etc, were seeking to do Joseph harm (not necessarily to kill him, we don’t know if their intentions ran to that). To facilitate the local feeling against Joseph, and to quell the social and political threat that Joseph posed, Governor Thomas Ford reduced the jail’s protection to just a few men who he knew were sympathetic to the feelings against Joseph, thereby paving the way for the townsfolk to gain easy access.

Ultimately Thomas Ford is responsible for Joseph’s death.

[Analytics]

Joseph (and Hyrum) were shot in a gun fight that took place in Carthage Jail. Local townspeople, fed up with Joseph’s shenanigans - he’d taken their daughters, their wives, their money etc, were seeking to do Joseph harm (not necessarily to kill him, we don’t know if their intentions ran to that). To facilitate the local feeling against Joseph, and to quell the social and political threat that Joseph posed, Governor Thomas Ford reduced the jail’s protection to just a few men who he knew were sympathetic to the feelings against Joseph, thereby paving the way for the townsfolk to gain easy access.

Ultimately Thomas Ford is responsible for Joseph’s death.

I’m going to strenuously disagree with you on this.

Joseph Smith wasn’t sneaking over to Carthage and Warsaw, converting their daughters and wives, and then marrying them. He wasn’t taking their money, either.

The main reason the people of Illinois were pissed were political and legal. Joseph Smith sold the Saints' vote to the highest bidder, and double-crossed the people who purchased the Saints vote, and then announced that God wanted them to vote for the other guy. It became impossible to win elections without the Mormon vote, and both sides hated Joseph Smith for controlling state politics this way. Add to that:

1- Joseph and other Nauvoo leaders repeatedly used the Nauvoo Municipal Court’s alleged habeas corpus powers to discharge state and federal warrants, a practice that clearly undermined the rule of law and making Nauvoo citizens effectively immune to outside legal authority.

2- There were many rumors and credible accusations, that criminals were ripping off the broader community and then being protected by the Nauvoo legal system and militia.

3- Joseph Smith using the Nauvoo Legion to free himself from federal marshals who had arrested him with a valid arrest warrant over the Boggs assassination attempt.

4- Passing a law that if somebody from Nauvoo was arrested anywhere in the state, the federal or state marshals had to bring the citizen back to Nauvoo and give the municipal judge the opportunity to quash the state or federal arrest warrant and indictment. And if the indictment was quashed, the marshal would be charged with the crime of a false arrest.

5- Joseph Smith maintaining control as part of a theocracy that made him effectively above the law and incompatible with American civic values

6- Joseph Smith destroying the Nauvoo Expositor and then declaring martial law.

This was on the frontier, and the power of the system to work was unproven. The locals thought Joseph Smith was a tyrant that knew how to work the system to avoid being held accountable. The assassination was frontier justice against an extremely terrible mayor/general/prophet who was a bona fide tyrant. Religious issues were secondary and were really only a problem because they facilitated his abuse of power. Thomas Ford let the legions go because they were farmers who needed to get back to their fields. The locals promised Ford they would protect Smith, and Ford believed them. Maybe that was foolish of Ford, but he wasn’t plotting to kill Smith this way.

[Kishkumen]

I’m going to strenuously disagree with you on this.

Joseph Smith wasn’t sneaking over to Carthage and Warsaw, converting their daughters and wives, and then marrying them. He wasn’t taking their money, either.

The main reason the people of Illinois were pissed were political and legal. Joseph Smith sold the Saints' vote to the highest bidder, and double-crossed the people who purchased the Saints vote, and then announced that God wanted them to vote for the other guy. It became impossible to win elections without the Mormon vote, and both sides hated Joseph Smith for controlling state politics this way. Add to that:

1- Joseph and other Nauvoo leaders repeatedly used the Nauvoo Municipal Court’s alleged habeas corpus powers to discharge state and federal warrants, a practice that clearly undermined the rule of law and making Nauvoo citizens effectively immune to outside legal authority.

2- There were many rumors and credible accusations, that criminals were ripping off the broader community and then being protected by the Nauvoo legal system and militia.

3- Joseph Smith using the Nauvoo Legion to free himself from federal marshals who had arrested him with a valid arrest warrant over the Boggs assassination attempt.

4- Passing a law that if somebody from Nauvoo was arrested anywhere in the state, the federal or state marshals had to bring the citizen back to Nauvoo and give the municipal judge the opportunity to quash the state or federal arrest warrant and indictment. And if the indictment was quashed, the marshal would be charged with the crime of a false arrest.

5- Joseph Smith maintaining control as part of a theocracy that made him effectively above the law and incompatible with American civic values

6- Joseph Smith destroying the Nauvoo Expositor and then declaring martial law.

This was on the frontier, and the power of the system to work was unproven. The locals thought Joseph Smith was a tyrant that knew how to work the system to avoid being held accountable. The assassination was frontier justice against an extremely terrible mayor/general/prophet who was a bona fide tyrant. Religious issues were secondary and were really only a problem because they facilitated his abuse of power. Thomas Ford let the legions go because they were farmers who needed to get back to their fields. The locals promised Ford they would protect Smith, and Ford believed them. Maybe that was foolish of Ford, but he wasn’t plotting to kill Smith this way.

That sums it up quite nicely. Joseph Smith was a tyrant, and he met the end tyrants often meet.

[Doctor Steuss]

If we're all supposed to give our personal answers, I'm saying it's Brigham Young and John Taylor.

Anyone who disagrees, bring your arguments to the contrary, but realize as you throw them into a pile that Sorites Paradox prevents that pile from ever becoming a heap.

No need to add to any pile. God wouldn't have two people that were to later be His prophets on earth be the ones to kill the first prophet.

If He wouldn't do that, it's kind of strange that He'd go through the trouble of having Deuteronomy 18:20 to be written, and preserved for thousands of years.

[I Have Questions]

Joseph (and Hyrum) were shot in a gun fight that took place in Carthage Jail. Local townspeople, fed up with Joseph’s shenanigans - he’d taken their daughters, their wives, their money etc, were seeking to do Joseph harm (not necessarily to kill him, we don’t know if their intentions ran to that). To facilitate the local feeling against Joseph, and to quell the social and political threat that Joseph posed, Governor Thomas Ford reduced the jail’s protection to just a few men who he knew were sympathetic to the feelings against Joseph, thereby paving the way for the townsfolk to gain easy access.

Ultimately Thomas Ford is responsible for Joseph’s death.

I’m going to strenuously disagree with you on this.

Joseph Smith wasn’t sneaking over to Carthage and Warsaw, converting their daughters and wives, and then marrying them. He wasn’t taking their money, either.

The main reason the people of Illinois were pissed were political and legal. Joseph Smith sold the Saints' vote to the highest bidder, and double-crossed the people who purchased the Saints vote, and then announced that God wanted them to vote for the other guy. It became impossible to win elections without the Mormon vote, and both sides hated Joseph Smith for controlling state politics this way. Add to that:

1- Joseph and other Nauvoo leaders repeatedly used the Nauvoo Municipal Court’s alleged habeas corpus powers to discharge state and federal warrants, a practice that clearly undermined the rule of law and making Nauvoo citizens effectively immune to outside legal authority.

2- There were many rumors and credible accusations, that criminals were ripping off the broader community and then being protected by the Nauvoo legal system and militia.

3- Joseph Smith using the Nauvoo Legion to free himself from federal marshals who had arrested him with a valid arrest warrant over the Boggs assassination attempt.

4- Passing a law that if somebody from Nauvoo was arrested anywhere in the state, the federal or state marshals had to bring the citizen back to Nauvoo and give the municipal judge the opportunity to quash the state or federal arrest warrant and indictment. And if the indictment was quashed, the marshal would be charged with the crime of a false arrest.

5- Joseph Smith maintaining control as part of a theocracy that made him effectively above the law and incompatible with American civic values

6- Joseph Smith destroying the Nauvoo Expositor and then declaring martial law.

This was on the frontier, and the power of the system to work was unproven. The locals thought Joseph Smith was a tyrant that knew how to work the system to avoid being held accountable. The assassination was frontier justice against an extremely terrible mayor/general/prophet who was a bona fide tyrant. Religious issues were secondary and were really only a problem because they facilitated his abuse of power. Thomas Ford let the legions go because they were farmers who needed to get back to their fields. The locals promised Ford they would protect Smith, and Ford believed them. Maybe that was foolish of Ford, but he wasn’t plotting to kill Smith this way.

Thank you for correcting me, I appreciate the insight and information you’ve provided. It will change my thinking and I will view the incident differently now as a result.