Who Killed Joseph Smith?

[MG 2.0]

No need to add to any pile. God wouldn't have two people that were to later be His prophets on earth be the ones to kill the first prophet.

If He wouldn't do that, it's kind of strange that He'd go through the trouble of having Deuteronomy 18:20 to be written, and preserved for thousands of years.

God's establishing a death penalty standard for false prophets doesn't entail that He would apply that penalty through divinely sanctioned 'agents'. Especially if those agents are to be future prophets of the restoration. God may, on the other hand, allow and/or permit the killings of prophets and righteous people by mobs/enemies knowing that those 'killers' are acting alone (or in a group) counter to God's will.

So, God may decree that false prophets deserve death in principle. That much is true. But to say that God would order the killing of His own prophet under the hands of those that would later fill that same spot doesn't seem to make any sense on its surface.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor Steuss]

God's establishing a death penalty standard for false prophets doesn't entail that He would apply that penalty through divinely sanctioned 'agents'. Especially if those agents are to be future prophets of the restoration. God may, on the other hand, allow and/or permit the killings of prophets and righteous people by mobs/enemies knowing that those 'killers' are acting alone (or in a group) counter to God's will.

So, God may decree that false prophets deserve death in principle. That much is true. But to say that God would order the killing of His own prophet under the hands of those that would later fill that same spot doesn't seem to make any sense on its surface.

Regards,
MG

It wasn't His prophet anymore. Hence God allowing him to be killed.

Easy-peasy.

[MG 2.0]

God's establishing a death penalty standard for false prophets doesn't entail that He would apply that penalty through divinely sanctioned 'agents'. Especially if those agents are to be future prophets of the restoration. God may, on the other hand, allow and/or permit the killings of prophets and righteous people by mobs/enemies knowing that those 'killers' are acting alone (or in a group) counter to God's will.

So, God may decree that false prophets deserve death in principle. That much is true. But to say that God would order the killing of His own prophet under the hands of those that would later fill that same spot doesn't seem to make any sense on its surface.

Regards,
MG

It wasn't His prophet anymore. Hence God allowing him to be killed.

Easy-peasy.

That is an easy way of looking at it. Takes a lot of the thought away from it, for sure.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

I’m going to strenuously disagree with you on this.

Joseph Smith wasn’t sneaking over to Carthage and Warsaw, converting their daughters and wives, and then marrying them. He wasn’t taking their money, either.

The main reason the people of Illinois were pissed were political and legal. Joseph Smith sold the Saints' vote to the highest bidder, and double-crossed the people who purchased the Saints vote, and then announced that God wanted them to vote for the other guy. It became impossible to win elections without the Mormon vote, and both sides hated Joseph Smith for controlling state politics this way. Add to that:

1- Joseph and other Nauvoo leaders repeatedly used the Nauvoo Municipal Court’s alleged habeas corpus powers to discharge state and federal warrants, a practice that clearly undermined the rule of law and making Nauvoo citizens effectively immune to outside legal authority.

2- There were many rumors and credible accusations, that criminals were ripping off the broader community and then being protected by the Nauvoo legal system and militia.

3- Joseph Smith using the Nauvoo Legion to free himself from federal marshals who had arrested him with a valid arrest warrant over the Boggs assassination attempt.

4- Passing a law that if somebody from Nauvoo was arrested anywhere in the state, the federal or state marshals had to bring the citizen back to Nauvoo and give the municipal judge the opportunity to quash the state or federal arrest warrant and indictment. And if the indictment was quashed, the marshal would be charged with the crime of a false arrest.

5- Joseph Smith maintaining control as part of a theocracy that made him effectively above the law and incompatible with American civic values

6- Joseph Smith destroying the Nauvoo Expositor and then declaring martial law.

This was on the frontier, and the power of the system to work was unproven. The locals thought Joseph Smith was a tyrant that knew how to work the system to avoid being held accountable. The assassination was frontier justice against an extremely terrible mayor/general/prophet who was a bona fide tyrant. Religious issues were secondary and were really only a problem because they facilitated his abuse of power. Thomas Ford let the legions go because they were farmers who needed to get back to their fields. The locals promised Ford they would protect Smith, and Ford believed them. Maybe that was foolish of Ford, but he wasn’t plotting to kill Smith this way.

Smith was losing his grip on the Saints. In October 1843, he tried to get the members to oust Rigdon from the FP. GC was sort of like an impeachment trial, but resulted in the members refusing Smith his request to bounce Rigdon. The William and Jane Law fiasco of Dec 1843 and Jan 1844 (getting rebuffed first by Jane and then William to the suggestion that Jane become another of Smith's conquests ("wives")) that resulted in Law being excommunicated; Law did not slink away but stayed in Nauvoo, gained a following and Smith derisively called him on 5.26.1844 the "new prophet." Law also was a proprietor of the Nauvoo Expositor. Smith's wife, Emma, as part of the Women's Relief Society had published in two parts a tract condemning the notion of polygamy in March 1844. In March and April, Smith formed a secret combination, the Council of Fifty, with designs of creating a world-dominating theocracy. Word got out. In June 1844, he along with his bro, Hyrum, abused their municipal authority and ordered that the destruction of the printing press after it had published just one edition. This, and the other abuses that you listed were too much for Illinois and its residents to just sit idly by while Smith continued abusing the rights of others. This, coupled with the loosened grip on the members, Smith did not have the necessary rallying of Nauvoo residents to protect Smith.

[Kishkumen]

Yeah, Smith was definitely spiraling out of control. No way he could escape the tyrant’s fate forever.

[I Have Questions]

I’m going to strenuously disagree with you on this.

Joseph Smith wasn’t sneaking over to Carthage and Warsaw, converting their daughters and wives, and then marrying them. He wasn’t taking their money, either.

The main reason the people of Illinois were pissed were political and legal. Joseph Smith sold the Saints' vote to the highest bidder, and double-crossed the people who purchased the Saints vote, and then announced that God wanted them to vote for the other guy. It became impossible to win elections without the Mormon vote, and both sides hated Joseph Smith for controlling state politics this way. Add to that:

1- Joseph and other Nauvoo leaders repeatedly used the Nauvoo Municipal Court’s alleged habeas corpus powers to discharge state and federal warrants, a practice that clearly undermined the rule of law and making Nauvoo citizens effectively immune to outside legal authority.

2- There were many rumors and credible accusations, that criminals were ripping off the broader community and then being protected by the Nauvoo legal system and militia.

3- Joseph Smith using the Nauvoo Legion to free himself from federal marshals who had arrested him with a valid arrest warrant over the Boggs assassination attempt.

4- Passing a law that if somebody from Nauvoo was arrested anywhere in the state, the federal or state marshals had to bring the citizen back to Nauvoo and give the municipal judge the opportunity to quash the state or federal arrest warrant and indictment. And if the indictment was quashed, the marshal would be charged with the crime of a false arrest.

5- Joseph Smith maintaining control as part of a theocracy that made him effectively above the law and incompatible with American civic values

6- Joseph Smith destroying the Nauvoo Expositor and then declaring martial law.

This was on the frontier, and the power of the system to work was unproven. The locals thought Joseph Smith was a tyrant that knew how to work the system to avoid being held accountable. The assassination was frontier justice against an extremely terrible mayor/general/prophet who was a bona fide tyrant. Religious issues were secondary and were really only a problem because they facilitated his abuse of power. Thomas Ford let the legions go because they were farmers who needed to get back to their fields. The locals promised Ford they would protect Smith, and Ford believed them. Maybe that was foolish of Ford, but he wasn’t plotting to kill Smith this way.

Smith was losing his grip on the Saints. In October 1843, he tried to get the members to oust Rigdon from the FP. GC was sort of like an impeachment trial, but resulted in the members refusing Smith his request to bounce Rigdon. The William and Jane Law fiasco of Dec 1843 and Jan 1844 (getting rebuffed first by Jane and then William to the suggestion that Jane become another of Smith's conquests ("wives")) that resulted in Law being excommunicated; Law did not slink away but stayed in Nauvoo, gained a following and Smith derisively called him on 5.26.1844 the "new prophet." Law also was a proprietor of the Nauvoo Expositor. Smith's wife, Emma, as part of the Women's Relief Society had published in two parts a tract condemning the notion of polygamy in March 1844. In March and April, Smith formed a secret combination, the Council of Fifty, with designs of creating a world-dominating theocracy. Word got out. In June 1844, he along with his bro, Hyrum, abused their municipal authority and ordered that the destruction of the printing press after it had published just one edition. This, and the other abuses that you listed were too much for Illinois and its residents to just sit idly by while Smith continued abusing the rights of others. This, coupled with the loosened grip on the members, Smith did not have the necessary rallying of Nauvoo residents to protect Smith.

This is also really interesting stuff. Thank you.

[Gadianton]

God wouldn't have two people that were to later be His prophets on earth be the ones to kill the first prophet.

How do you know? Are your ways God's ways?

God writes straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

God wouldn't have two people that were to later be His prophets on earth be the ones to kill the first prophet.

How do you know? Are your ways God's ways?

God writes straight with crooked lines.

[MG 2.0]

God wouldn't have two people that were to later be His prophets on earth be the ones to kill the first prophet.

How do you know? Are your ways God's ways?

God writes straight with crooked lines.

Explain a scenario where that would make sense.

Take into account the words of Brigham and John Taylor before Joseph's death.

Not to say that there weren't some crooked lines that entered into the picture after Joseph's death and before Brigham Young was sustained as prophet.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Earlier the argument was that ambiguity is necessary for faith and that too much certainty would undermine it. But here we seem quite certain about what God would or wouldn’t do.