Elder Gilbert Interview with Peggy Fletcher Stack

[Morley]

He's already had two AI posts moved out of this thread in the last few hours, and now he did it again??? He really will do just about anything for attention. What a troll.

At this stage we must conclude it’s pathological. Don’t worry, Shades will give him his 15th warning and trust that MG will amend his behaviour of his own accord <holds breath> because giving him multiple warnings about the same repeating behaviour has always worked…

I don't think that it's that MG's a troll as much as it's that he's an end justifies the means type of fellow. I think he believes since his end intentions are good (defending the Church), it's okay if he skirts what he sees as unjust rules and then kind of lies about it.

MG and I disagree on this approach. He has said that ends justifies the means is often necessary to accomplish the greater good--while I think that it's the fetid justification for virtually every form of immorality that exists.

He has maintained that God uses ends justifies the means all the time. My retort is that no God worthy of the position would do such a thing. End justifies the means is one of MG's crooked lines that God uses to draw straight.

My tendency is to distrust anyone who justifies their own behavior--or their religion--with that philosophy.

[malkie]

God picks imperfect people to work through to be prophets? I therefor blame god for every damnation he conveys on everyone throughout history. Prophets get inside information like angelic visitations, special communications, seer abilities, the ladies, reveletory skills and so much more. He could make everyone prophets and run a Hilbert hotel for prophetic missions.

I'd love to have the last room in the Hilbert Hotel! I hear it's really special, but a lonnnnng way from reception.

[malkie]

2. Followers are more focused on God rather than a perfect leader who may not have a whole lot in common with them.

There are no perfect leaders, or perfect people, so this really isn’t an issue.

And, maybe someone less problematic would have allowed followers to be more focused on God than the drama and shenanigans of a fellow who occasionally interpreted ‘having something in common’ with someone else as wanting the same wife.

Perhaps Joseph Smith was in the "Goldilocks" zone of Mormon god's desired characteristics for a prophet. Or the universe was fine tuned to produce Joseph, warts and all.

[I Have Questions]

He's already had two AI posts moved out of this thread in the last few hours, and now he did it again??? He really will do just about anything for attention. What a troll.

At this stage we must conclude it’s pathological. Don’t worry, Shades will give him his 15th warning and trust that MG will amend his behaviour of his own accord <holds breath> because giving him multiple warnings about the same repeating behaviour has always worked…

I don't think that it's that MG's a troll as much as it's that he's an end justifies the means type of fellow. I think he believes since his end intentions are good (defending the Church), it's okay if he skirts what he sees as unjust rules and then kind of lies about it.

MG and I disagree on this approach. He has said that ends justifies the means is often necessary to accomplish the greater good--while I think that it's the fetid justification for virtually every form of immorality that exists.

He has maintained that God uses ends justifies the means all the time. My retort is that no God worthy of the position would do such a thing. End justifies the means is one of MG's crooked lines that God uses to draw straight.

My tendency is to distrust anyone who justifies their own behavior--or their religion--with that philosophy.

Yes. MG has frequently hidden behind the mantra “the ends justifies the means” and presented it as if God and his Church are okay with the idea. But they’re not. In fact, they are completely opposed to it. Here’s Uchtdorf

Moral agency refers not only to the capacity to act for ourselves but also that we are accountable for those actions.

I believe one reason for today’s decline in moral values is that the world has invented a new, constantly changing, undependable standard of moral conduct often referred to as “situational ethics.” Some convince themselves that ends justify means, and that agendas or ideologies must be advanced regardless of collateral damage.

This delusion is in direct contrast to the God-given standards. The Ten Commandments and other divine laws constitute the commandments of God. These divine laws are instituted by God to govern His creations and to prescribe behavior for His offspring.

Uchtdorf just told MG that he, MG, is delusional.

[MG 2.0]

[MG] has maintained that God uses ends justifies the means all the time. My retort is that no God worthy of the position would do such a thing. End justifies the means is one of MG's crooked lines that God uses to draw straight.

To clarify, when we say the "ends justifies the means" we may be looking at things a bit differently. I bring it back to agency and free will. The means is 'free will'. The ends is the outcome of the crooked lines that human beings travel. God justifies the means and the end through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. What does this mean? Simply, that as humans travel the road of life and make mistakes, correct themselves, and move towards becoming all that they can be, the end justifies the means to get there.

And those that believe in Christianity and Jesus' power to save have a leg up in the sense that they have a 'sneak preview' of the way God makes crooked lines straight.

I've said many times, we live in a natural world. It is what it is. It is a world in which we can actually choose between opposites and everything in between. There are the exceptions. That's part and parcel of the fallen/natural world.

I maintain that it couldn't/can't be any other way and still fully allow for free agents. And more importantly, the growth that goes along with being free to choose.

So "the end justifies the means" really isn't what I think you're making it out to be.

Even as a non believer you are still a beneficiary of that plan of agency and choice. We tend to take it for granted at times, don't we?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I don't think that it's that MG's a troll...

Now and then it's nice to hear someone say that. The 'mind virus' that spreads among a few posters is susceptible to spread/enlargement unless others see it for what it is.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Perhaps Joseph Smith was in the "Goldilocks" zone of Mormon god's desired characteristics for a prophet. Or the universe was fine tuned to produce Joseph, warts and all.

Perhaps both of these sentences are true.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

God picks imperfect people to work through to be prophets? I therefor blame god for every damnation he conveys on everyone throughout history. Prophets get inside information like angelic visitations, special communications, seer abilities, the ladies, reveletory skills and so much more. He could make everyone prophets and run a Hilbert hotel for prophetic missions.

The world is full...well, at least there are a lot of them...of people that second guess God. Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

There are no perfect leaders, or perfect people, so this really isn’t an issue.

And, maybe someone less problematic would have allowed followers to be more focused on God than the drama and shenanigans of a fellow who occasionally interpreted ‘having something in common’ with someone else as wanting the same wife.

Perhaps Joseph Smith was in the "Goldilocks" zone of Mormon god's desired characteristics for a prophet. Or the universe was fine tuned to produce Joseph, warts and all.

Of course, there's not a shred of evidence for either of those ideas, even if we granted the existence of Mormon god.

[Marcus]

God picks imperfect people to work through to be prophets? I therefor blame god for every damnation he conveys on everyone throughout history. Prophets get inside information like angelic visitations, special communications, seer abilities, the ladies, reveletory skills and so much more. He could make everyone prophets and run a Hilbert hotel for prophetic missions.

The world is full...well, at least there are a lot of them...of people that second guess God. Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.

Regards,
MG

And there are dozens if not thousands more who second guess Yeti, Sasquatch, and even area 51 Aliens, as I am sure all mentalgymnasts the internet over would agree.

(In deference to Malkie, I will not besmirch Nessie by adding her to this list, as no one can second guess her majesty.)