Does this seem very "intelligent" to you? - updated 22Feb

[Rivendale]

As in, free agency exist, and also, free agency doesn't exist? The mental gymnastics necessary for that defy logic.

Exactly. You can’t claim free agency is ultimate but require a rebellion as a necessary part of a plan.

Why a plan? Is it because every new world has new intricate adversarial attacks? Is it possible one of these worlds the adversary wins? Because on Earth, Mormonism gets absolutely pummeled according to population numbers.

[MG 2.0]

Exactly. You can’t claim free agency is ultimate but require a rebellion as a necessary part of a plan.

Why a plan? Is it because every new world has new intricate adversarial attacks? Is it possible one of these worlds the adversary wins? Because on Earth, Mormonism gets absolutely pummeled according to population numbers.

Is it possible that God knows in advance that not everyone is going to sign on to 'the plan'? If so, is there a contradiction? That's what I meant by two things being true at the same time. He knew there would be more than one. If He knew there would be more than one we might extrapolate from that that He would know that there would be a lot more than one.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Exactly. You can’t claim free agency is ultimate but require a rebellion as a necessary part of a plan.

Why a plan? Is it because every new world has new intricate adversarial attacks? Is it possible one of these worlds the adversary wins? Because on Earth, Mormonism gets absolutely pummeled according to population numbers.

Yes it does. Suppose Mormonism IS the adversarial plan. It's possible the adversary then loses, in this iteration.

[Limnor]

I’m not arguing that foreknowledge eliminates agency. I’m asking whether rebellion is required for the plan to function. If it is, that’s a different issue than simply being foreknown.

[malkie]

Exactly. You can’t claim free agency is ultimate but require a rebellion as a necessary part of a plan.

Why a plan? Is it because every new world has new intricate adversarial attacks? Is it possible one of these worlds the adversary wins? Because on Earth, Mormonism gets absolutely pummeled according to population numbers.

By the adversary winning, do you mean that not a single soul on that world achieves godhood, a.k.a. eternal life?

What, I wonder, would be considered to be the success criteria for a world chosen at random. Since we have no reason to think that our world is special in any way, I believe that we can use it to draw conclusions about the whole kit 'n' kaboodle.

Elohim said that

“This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Can we assume that bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of the eternal intelligences also represents the work and the glory of #1 god?

Perhaps the overall success rate of 0.1% is a resounding success, and the other 99.9% of the intelligences could never have been expected to achieve success, so what does it matter that they never have that experience. Perhaps they would have made lousy gods.

Closer to the point at which the adversary wins, if only one person - actually, let's specify one hetero married couple - on a world eventually achieves eternal life, does that count as success, because they become a god and goddess, and can propagate the species into the future eternity?

[Rivendale]

By the adversary winning, do you mean that not a single soul on that world achieves godhood, a.k.a. eternal life?

It is absolutely portrayed as a battle. If there isn't a chance to win there is no game. Are souls the chess pieces on Elohim's board? Are souls the chess pieces on the adversary's 3d board? Or is it the other way around?

[malkie]

I’m not arguing that foreknowledge eliminates agency. I’m asking whether rebellion is required for the plan to function. If it is, that’s a different issue than simply being foreknown.

There are at least three failure modes:

• no spirit volunteers to be the sacrificial "lamb"
• no spirit rebels
• every human reject god's plan, or fails to attain eternal life

Perhaps some gods simply are dealt a bad hand.

[malkie]

By the adversary winning, do you mean that not a single soul on that world achieves godhood, a.k.a. eternal life?

It is absolutely portrayed as a battle. If there isn't a chance to win there is no game. Are souls the chess pieces on Elohim's board? Are souls the chess pieces on the adversary's 3d board? Or is it the other way around?

Apparently one or the other. Perhaps it doesn't matter which.

[malkie]

As I said before, history is written by the victor.

What if Lucifer had come up with a better plan than Elohim inherited, and simply asked for some credit? It was a plan that gave the spirits an earthly experience, complete with agency, but still allowed for all to achieve godhood. But the jealous Elohim and Jesus, instead of letting Lucifer carry out his plan, banished him for no other reason than NIH. Why don't we know? There was a coverup, and all memory of Lucifer's plan has been wiped from our minds.

Don't ask me what the better plan was - Lucifer's ways, he tells me, are not my ways

[Limnor]

As I said before, history is written by the victor.

What if Lucifer had come up with a better plan than Elohim inherited, and simply asked for some credit? It was a plan that gave the spirits an earthly experience, complete with agency, but still allowed for all to achieve godhood. But the jealous Elohim and Jesus, instead of letting Lucifer carry out his plan, banished him for no other reason than NIH. Why don't we know? There was a coverup, and all memory of Lucifer's plan has been wiped from our minds.

Don't ask me what the better plan was - Lucifer's ways, he tells me, are not my ways

Could the 1/3 have won the battle? To me that’s part of the question—if there was always an outcome of that loss then it was just part of the plan. No deviation, no agency, just set pieces in a staged drama.