Mormonism's OA and the mighty F-S chain

[I Have Questions]

Gadianton:
This is a good question, MG, thank you for participating rather than derailing.

This is MG posting a quote from the AI Megathread. As Marcus points out, Shades has explained the rules till he is blue in the face. Yet here is MG attempting to circumvent the rule yet again. He really is treating Shades like a mug.

@Dr.Shades, now that MG has shown you, yet again, that he’s not going to follow the board rules no matter what you say, what are you going to do - warn him again and have him pinky promise that this time he’ll definitely comply? He’s earned a significant consequence by now, hasn’t he?

[MG 2.0]

By the way, I thought it was Ok to take what Gadianton had said in his own words on another thread, even if it was the AI megathread, and bring them over to this thread to continue a productive/useful conversation. I hope the current hoopla (from a chronic troll) doesn't derail the main thrust of the thread.

Maybe it already has.

That would be sad. I'm hoping to hear from either Gadianton or Limnor...or someone else that isn't hell bent on vendettas, etc.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

By the way, I thought it was Ok to take what Gadianton had said in his own words on another thread, even if it was the AI megathread, and bring them over to this thread to continue a productive/useful conversation.

Read what Shades has told you about this, and point to the part that has led you to think that was okay. You are pathological. Incapable of good faith behaviour.

[I Have Questions]

Gadianton:
This is a good question, MG, thank you for participating rather than derailing.

In the story of the Sneetches that I had AI comment on in this thread, is it better to have a star or not have a star?

Imagine two competing religions that have gone to war for centuries, one worships Zeus and the other Thor. One day while fighting, Zeus and Thor actually appear overhead and everyone stops to watch the great gods do battle. It's hard to say before the fact if a lightning bolt is more powerful than a magic hammer. But suppose Zeus throws this epic bolt that leaves Thor's body crushed to the ground and motionless. The perfect "fatality" move, if you ever played Streetfighter2. Then Zeus throws bolts at Thor's followers, killing them. With the advantage, Zeus's followers begin to capture Thor's followers and imprison them.

Thor's body slowly decays and rots and merges with the elements until nothing is left. Zeus's cult is triumphant. Many of Thor's followers convert and are allowed to live. Many are punished and tortured and convert under duress. A few though don't convert. Rumor spreads among the stalwarts that Thor was just playing dead. His spirit has now absorbed into the wind and he's watching, waiting for the right time to strike. When he does, the wicked who punished the helpless Thorites will be sorry. However, once Thor returns to destroy Zeus once and for all and destroys the truly wicked who showed themselves as villains, he will have mercy on the rest, and even feed the families of the fallen soldiers of Zeus. This spirit-Thor relates not only to the remaining struggling Thorites, but a few from the Zeus cult are listening. Many bit their tongue but just weren't good with Zeus being such a sore winner. After he won, why did he go overboard and start killing everyone for no reason? It made some sense, if you really thought about it, that Thor pretended to lose just to show the truth about Zeus's weakness of temperament. What a master move. What control. The final great battle should be pretty damn good.

So no, I don't think we can say a God with a body is more relatable than a God without a body without more information.

This is a full cross posting from the AI Megathread

[I Have Questions]

MG:
That's where LDS theology and the King Follett discourse come into the picture. We worship a God who has had common experience with us. He has experienced pain and suffering. Happiness and joy. He has overcome all things. He is our perfect example. Jesus became incarnate and experienced the physicality of a 'fallen world' with all of its ups and downs.

Zeus and Thor were 'god born'. There's a difference, isn't there in your comparison/analogy?

In LDS theology God wasn't born a God. He is relatable because He knows us and has experienced what we experience and we can progressively get to know Him and become more like Him.

He is not the classical 'nebulous god' that one has a difficult wrapping their mind around or being able to relate to except for finding him in your heart.

Regards,
MG

This is also a full cross posting from the AI Megathread

[Marcus]

By the way, I thought it was Ok to take what Gadianton had said in his own words on another thread, even if it was the AI megathread, and bring them over to this thread to continue a productive/useful conversation.

Read what Shades has told you about this, and point to the part that has led you to think that was okay. You are pathological. Incapable of good faith behavior.

It's hard to believe his memory is so bad that he really doesn't remember the repeated messages directly from Shades to him about this, because Shades has been very specific, in red, repeatedly, about how he is NOT to bring over anything from the AI thread. Pretending not to know the rule and then repeatedly breaking it is how a troll disrupts.

[MG 2.0]

This is amusing. It will be interesting to see how things play out. I haven't heard anything out of Gadiantion yet. That's fine. He may be doing something else. I'm just preparing to go out for a run. Sunny day here in Utah.

Gadianton, do you have a problem with bringing over a non AI related conversation with no AI material, in which we are simply going back and forth in our own words, to flesh out what is being discussed on this thread?

If we are going to get so nit picky about all this and make mountains out of mole hills...that is stupid. It's not right.

BUT!! If Shades goes back and reviews this and says that in this instance the 'back and forth' between Gadianton and I CANNOT be brought into this thread so as to continue a relevant and productive conversation (until, unfortunately, the trolls showed up)...then so be it.

Sadly, this would be harmful. Why? Simply because the conversation we were having over there was strictly relevant to the conversation/discussion here.

How far are we going to take this guys? Canpakes??

MOD NOTE: I’m just looking at this now because I have a moment’s window between some project tasks. I’d say to not be importing content from the AI thread, into other threads, especially whole unchanged paragraphs or complete posts. This violates both the spirit and letter of the rule given by Shades. A number of this afternoon’s posts may be sent back into the AI thread after I’ve had a chance to review.

Also, I’m not a fan of seeing anyone’s name or content being changed within quoted text. That’ll be noted and cleaned up later.

-c-

Since I chimed in on the conversation offering relevant thoughts/twists/turns, there has been (as has been the case at other times) 'crickets'. Usually when that happens the trolling insects chime in and offer up their lower level contributions and indignation to plug things up with their crap.

And little else.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Looks like this thread is done. I'll check back at another time to see if it has gone back on course or if anyone has replied to my posts without simply taking a crap all over the place.

Sheesh. I was simply trying to have a conversation with another board member.

Another MG thread. I don't like it. Never will. It's a waste of everyone's time. Vendettas are powerful things.

Later.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

That would be sad. I'm hoping to hear from either Gadianton or Limnor...or someone else that isn't hell bent on vendettas, etc.

Regards,
MG

Hear from us about what? Please succinctly state your point and let’s see where it goes.

[Rivendale]

Mormonism teaches children demonstrably untrue versions of reality which contribute negatively to human flourishing.

Would you agree that there are many many worldviews that various people have? Their own interpretations of reality? Including materialists? Including secularists? Would you say that the worldviews of materialists and secularists always lead to "human flourishing"?

Many many intelligent LDS members see the truth claims of the church as being reasonable and not deliberate falsehoods. Are you willing to "live and let live" those folks as they are weighed in the balance along with materialists and secularists? By the way, members of the church are going to look at a materialist and/or secularist and in most cases say, "Live and let live".

It doesn't seem to go both ways.

LDS teachings and social networks produce MANY psychologically healthy adults that are "flourishing" and happy living in the world and yet not "of the world" in certain respects. I think your statement is overdone, to say the least.

Mormonism has caused financial deception with regards to US laws and regulations that impact others.

I don't know that any active member of the church that is aware of the financial investments of the church that you are referring to is going to excuse any mistakes or misjudgments that occurred. Taking this as far as to then say, as you would, that this is just "another" evidence that the church is a fraud or that its leaders are intentionally "hoodwinking" members is a stretch, to say the least.

Mormonism has taken part in Amicus briefs that attempt to remove human rights from marginalized groups of people.

I don't have a problem with a religious organization exercising their right to speak out on moral issues. I may not always agree in every respect, but I still respect their right to do so. If that involves submitting Amicus briefs and also lobby against that which they (the leadership) disagree with on moral grounds, that's fine too.

I don't understand why you are so dead set against others having moral convictions different than yours?

Mormonism in the Mormon corridor runs the government that is indistinguishable from a theocracy which impacts non-believers and other religious groups.

That's hyperbole. Utah has elections. Utah has opposing parties. Utah has non LDS office holders in state and local government. Utah has constitutional restraints that inhibit any "theocracy" from exercising undo control. The fact that many legislators happen to have similar 'moral groundings' as the predominant religion...and other religions found in the state...is 'the way it is'. It just is. But that's not an indictment against the LDS Church.

Mormonism protects abusers at the expense of the abused. If you haven't seen the documentary Wild Wild Country watch it and that will show you why some people can't leave it alone.

There have been painful failures on the part of individuals...leaders and lay members...in where abusive situations have either been mishandled or ignored. As I said earlier, I don't think many active and intelligent Latter-day Saints are going to disagree. The fact is, there have been fairly recent policy changes and training that have played an important part in protecting victims and punishing the perpetrators. Will there still be some missteps and failures? Probably.

Humans sometimes to evil things. Even those that you would expect more of. Most local leaders try to do the right thing. I've noticed over time that more and more leaders (including those in our own ward) are sending people to therapists rather than trying to counsel them in areas that they have little or no expertise.

Critics, as they are prone to do, take this area of criticism and overblow it to the extent that they, again, are painting out the "church" to be a fraud and embarrassment, to say the least.

Rivendale, I am still responding and communicating with you because as of yet you have been mostly civil without resorting to constant ad hominem or false innuendo. I appreciate that. I hope that can continue. I notice there have been posters on my ignore list participating on this thread and jumping in (trolling) any time they see I am making comments from the 'believing perspective'. I will continue to let them have their way knowing that I will take some 'hits' even if unwarranted and untrue. The setting up of strawmen is especially prevalent.

It would be nice if others would point that out. But, alas, I don't expect that will happen.

Thanks for your response...even if most of what you said can easily be poked with holes. But that's the nature of free discussion, right? You have your say, and I have mine...and we don't go after each other with vitriol and hate.

I expect there will be one or two that are now going to jump in and yell, "Hypocrite!" Let them say what they will. It's not true. I know who I am...and it's not who they say/think I am.

Thanks for your post.

Regards,
MG

The intelligences of members have no bearing on belief. The amount of people believing something has no bearing on the veracity of the truth claim. People tend to compartmentalize religious beliefs and usually don't scrutinize them as they do in secular life. There is no doubt that humans did not descend from two people. There is no doubt evolutionary arguments explain how we arrived yet Mormonism for the most part (especially average members) do not believe this and teach their children otherwise. Mormonism hijacked many cultures and teach them a false narrative regarding their ancestors.There are many many other examples.

There are many psychologically healthy adults in Scientology. Their are many psychologically healthy adults in Jainism. The belief in the tenants of scientology or any other religion may yield what society deems psychologically healthy adults but that doesn't mean they will be a net positive in the future of humanity.

Speaking up on moral issues is fine if they restrict their own moral framework to their own members. But they don't. They infringe on other peoples human rights. That is none of their buisiness and is literally the definition of restricting others flourishing at the expense of a spurious doctrine created by people whose behavior was largely immoral.

Leaders are now sending people to therapists finally? You're making my point. They stifled flourishing for decades and decades.