Could Joseph Smith Make the Plates?

[Gadianton]

I see it as deliberate on Joseph’s part—he is describing to Martin that Martin is really a king and Harris believes him. There are lines in the book that describe the use of flattery to sway people and I think this episode is a demonstration of that effort.

You mean descriptions of anti-Christs using flattery are a way of throwing the reader off the scent while then explicitly using flattery?

Do you have reason to believe Harris read the passage and was convinced by it? Are you saying it was specifically for Harris, or more general, like, after being in situation a, b, and c; a, b, and c take form within the book as a way to deal with future similar situations.

[Limnor]

I see it as deliberate on Joseph’s part—he is describing to Martin that Martin is really a king and Harris believes him. There are lines in the book that describe the use of flattery to sway people and I think this episode is a demonstration of that effort.

You mean descriptions of anti-Christs using flattery are a way of throwing the reader off the scent while then explicitly using flattery?

Do you have reason to believe Harris read the passage and was convinced by it? Are you saying it was specifically for Harris, or more general, like, after being in situation a, b, and c; a, b, and c take form within the book as a way to deal with future similar situations.

Yes exactly—there are multiple instances that reveal the method—sometimes through guile, through false service, and other means to demonstrate sincerity. I think the anti-Christ passages reflect confrontations between Joseph and Oliver, Whitmer, and Rigdon.

I think this is close to what I’m saying: “situation a, b, and c; a, b, and c take form within the book as a way to deal with future similar situations.”

The situation occurs, and then Joseph “translates” it into the book with an ancient setting.

I think it was physics guy who called it a Roman a clef—that’s probably the literary term for my theory.

[Limnor]

I don’t think Harris had to be convinced of much. He was part of it.

[Limnor]

Maybe it will make more sense if I lay it out side by side.

Reading Mosiah 7–8, i think about the people, the roles. Limhi has the plates because someone killed the original prophet, Abinadi. But Limhi can’t interpret them or continue the story. Ammon, who came from Zarahemla on behalf of Mosiah, explains what a seer is, and tells Limhi that Mosiah holds that authority.

If you map that onto early figures, Harris has the plates because he holds what Alvin has written down before he dies, Pratt has come from the Kirtland area to check progress on what Alvin was tasked to do, and Pratt tells Harris the interpretive authority is held by Rigdon.

[Equality]

The 'green caste' may not be a deal breaker for you but it seems to be for others.

[snip]

this is another reason why critics and debunkers are a good thing for storytellers. It superficially seems to put believer and doubter of a claim on an equal footing. If the claim is completely audacious, and a critic seeks to explain the claim in ordinary terms and is mistaken, then it feels like the likelihood of the claim increases somewhere between a little bit and substantially. But this is incorrect.

Excellent point. You see this in other contexts as well, and is a reason many scientists refuse to "debate" flat earthers or creationists or moon-landing-was-a-hoaxers.

Similarly, today I saw a leading newspaper refer to the "ongoing feud" between a recently deceased war hero/law enforcement officer and the prominent criminal who was once the subject of a criminal investigation led by the decorated veteran. In framing it this way, they elevate the criminal and denigrate the man who simply did his job, as if the two parties were on equal moral ground.

[Limnor]

For me it’s “An angel gave you plates? Let’s see them.” “Uh sorry yeah the angel took them back.”

Right.

I sense a little "Who's On First" action bubbling up.

Me: An angel gave you plates?
Joseph: Yes.
Me: Can I see them?
Joseph: No, they were taken back.
Me: By who?
Joseph: The angel.
Me: The one who gave them?
Joseph: Yes.
Me: So the angel gives them…
Joseph: Right.
Me: …and then takes them?
Joseph: Exactly.
Me: So we can’t see them?
Joseph: Correct.
Me: But they were real?
Joseph: Absolutely.
Me: Based on what?
Joseph: The plates.
Me: The plates we can’t see?
Joseph: Right.
Me: And this convinces people?
Joseph: It should.
Me: Why?
Joseph: Because of the plates.
Me: The same plates?
Joseph: The very same.
Me: The invisible ones?
Joseph: Temporarily unavailable.
Me: Of course.
Joseph: So. Ready for baptism?

[Marcus]

I sense a little "Who's On First" action bubbling up.

Me: An angel gave you plates?
Joseph: Yes.
Me: Can I see them?
Joseph: No, they were taken back.
Me: By who?
Joseph: The angel.
Me: The one who gave them?
Joseph: Yes.
Me: So the angel gives them…
Joseph: Right.
Me: …and then takes them?
Joseph: Exactly.
Me: So we can’t see them?
Joseph: Correct.
Me: But they were real?
Joseph: Absolutely.
Me: Based on what?
Joseph: The plates.
Me: The plates we can’t see?
Joseph: Right.
Me: And this convinces people?
Joseph: It should.
Me: Why?
Joseph: Because of the plates.
Me: The same plates?
Joseph: The very same.
Me: The invisible ones?
Joseph: Temporarily unavailable.
Me: Of course.
Joseph: So. Ready for baptism?

Lol, very nice. Just in solidarity with that mopologist (I think nicknamed bukake?) who specializes in circular footnotes, i would add one bit:

And this convinces people?
Joseph: It should.
Me: Why?
Joseph: Because it is written in the plates.
Me: What is written?
Joseph: That the plates are real.
Me: It's written that the plates are real in the same plates?
Joseph: The very same.
Me: Can i read them?
Joseph: No, becau------
Me: I know I know!! Because they are the invisible ones.

[Limnor]

Me: An angel gave you plates?
Joseph: Yes.
Me: Can I see them?
Joseph: No, they were taken back.
Me: By who?
Joseph: The angel.
Me: The one who gave them?
Joseph: Yes.
Me: So the angel gives them…
Joseph: Right.
Me: …and then takes them?
Joseph: Exactly.
Me: So we can’t see them?
Joseph: Correct.
Me: But they were real?
Joseph: Absolutely.
Me: Based on what?
Joseph: The plates.
Me: The plates we can’t see?
Joseph: Right.
Me: And this convinces people?
Joseph: It should.
Me: Why?
Joseph: Because of the plates.
Me: The same plates?
Joseph: The very same.
Me: The invisible ones?
Joseph: Temporarily unavailable.
Me: Of course.
Joseph: So. Ready for baptism?

Lol, very nice. Just in solidarity with that mopologist (I think nicknamed bukake?) who specializes in circular footnotes, i would add one bit:

And this convinces people?
Joseph: It should.
Me: Why?
Joseph: Because it is written in the plates.
Me: What is written?
Joseph: That the plates are real.
Me: It's written that the plates are real in the same plates?
Joseph: The very same.
Me: Can i read them?
Joseph: No, becau------
Me: I know I know!! Because they are the invisible ones.

Never ending loop lol

[Marcus]

Lol, very nice. Just in solidarity with that mopologist (I think nicknamed bukake?) who specializes in circular footnotes, i would add one bit:

And this convinces people?
Joseph: It should.
Me: Why?
Joseph: Because it is written in the plates.
Me: What is written?
Joseph: That the plates are real.
Me: It's written that the plates are real in the same plates?
Joseph: The very same.
Me: Can i read them?
Joseph: No, becau------
Me: I know I know!! Because they are the invisible ones.

Never ending loop lol

And there is no "loop counter with an escape to the least objectionable" belief for the hard core.

[malkie]

Never ending loop lol

And there is no "loop counter with an escape to the least objectionable" belief for the hard core.

Not even a "fallthrough" escape? Just in case?