The artificial intelligence MEGATHREAD

[Limnor]

Parsimonious? A more parsimonious explanation is that the text reflects an autobiographical or 19th-century composition rather than an ancient record. The simpler explanation doesn’t require additional assumptions like angels taking the plates back, translation via stones in hats with no requirement for the plates, or missing things like horses or DNA.

Parsimonious heh

The standard position is angels and the supernatural is disregarded thereby creating a counter apologists narrative. The constant clamor by smac is that no naturalistic explanation can connect all the dots their supernatural narrative can.

That’s fair I suppose, though I would disagree that a naturalist explanation isn’t sufficient. I don’t know Smac nor if Smac has considered an autobiographical explanation. My guess is he or she isn’t even open to the idea of a naturalistic explanation.

I’m open to the supernatural, but I don’t understand the necessity for the plates’ discovery requiring an angel. The Dead Sea Scrolls didn’t. There seems to be some risk-taking that the plates weren’t accidentally found by someone in the 1400s.

There is a quote from Joseph, the line “why can I not get them?” that makes no sense to me in the discovery of physical plates. I mean the plates were either physically there or they weren’t. The way the story reads with the “why can’t I get them” is like he’s upset because a supernatural object didn’t appear when he expected it to. The line makes more sense in the early 1826 context in which he had been trying to retrieve a treasure-object guarded by a spirit who kept refusing him.

As a thought experiment and alternate explanation, maybe he was talking about a preexisting document or record he believed he should have access to, like “records” Alvin and Sidney had been using. “Why can I not get them?” becomes an expression of frustration that the material he expected to inherit or use was not available to him, because Alvin had died and Sidney had the manuscripts elsewhere but was reluctant to turn the project over to Joseph.

[malkie]

I'm going to disagree with you on that point, Limnor.

But because it's the weekend and my darling wife is awake, my explanation will have to wait until I've made brunch and brought it to her in bed

I made a kind of breakfast burrito, with egg, bacon, and cheese, but since we're cutting down on carbs I used rice paper instead of tortillas.

Anyway, back to my reasons for disagreeing.

As we've all seen for months now, MG has been moaning and griping about the AI rule, and has accused the mods - especially The Venerable Dr Shades - of creating the rule specifically to disadvantage MG. The rationale was that using AI as a force & effort multiplier, or waldo, a "Synchronous Reduplicating Pantograph" (see Heinlein's short story: Waldo), MG as pretty much the sole valiant defender of Mormonism could perform "fairly" against the horde of apostates, heretics, and general miscreants. You may recognize yourself as apparently part of that horde I'm a happy member.

Waldos are wonderful devices if you can master them and use them effectively. If not, they can inadvertently do a lot of damage. Worse is constantly proclaiming how well you can use a waldo while demonstrating your lack of skills, over and over again.

Derail alert!!

After over four years of war, Ukraine’s military says it’s testing an exoskeleton in the field that can help soldiers more easily load artillery and run at speeds of up to 12 mph over sustained periods. The tests would mark one of the first known examples of exoskeletons used on the front lines of an active military operation.

Ukraine’s military brings exoskeletons to the front line

I hope they are more effective than MG's Waldo.

[Limnor]

You’d expect a spate of unchallenged assertions with MG gone, but mostly it’s just fewer posts about MG.

[I Have Questions]

There is a quote from Joseph, the line “why can I not get them?” that makes no sense to me in the discovery of physical plates. I mean the plates were either physically there or they weren’t. The way the story reads with the “why can’t I get them” is like he’s upset because a supernatural object didn’t appear when he expected it to. The line makes more sense in the early 1826 context in which he had been trying to retrieve a treasure-object guarded by a spirit who kept refusing him.

As a thought experiment and alternate explanation, maybe he was talking about a preexisting document or record he believed he should have access to, like “records” Alvin and Sidney had been using. “Why can I not get them?” becomes an expression of frustration that the material he expected to inherit or use was not available to him, because Alvin had died and Sidney had the manuscripts elsewhere but was reluctant to turn the project over to Joseph.

The Spalding Manuscript perhaps? A copy of The Pilgrim's Progress or The View Of The Hebrews maybe?

[Limnor]

There is a quote from Joseph, the line “why can I not get them?” that makes no sense to me in the discovery of physical plates. I mean the plates were either physically there or they weren’t. The way the story reads with the “why can’t I get them” is like he’s upset because a supernatural object didn’t appear when he expected it to. The line makes more sense in the early 1826 context in which he had been trying to retrieve a treasure-object guarded by a spirit who kept refusing him.

As a thought experiment and alternate explanation, maybe he was talking about a preexisting document or record he believed he should have access to, like “records” Alvin and Sidney had been using. “Why can I not get them?” becomes an expression of frustration that the material he expected to inherit or use was not available to him, because Alvin had died and Sidney had the manuscripts elsewhere but was reluctant to turn the project over to Joseph.

The Spalding Manuscript perhaps? A copy of The Pilgrim's Progress or The View Of The Hebrews maybe?

In my view it was an altered Spalding manuscript—but that manuscript was further altered and added to by Joseph.

[Philo Sofee]

I have been aware of the LDS Church's most recent efforts to attack John Dehlin's Mormon Stories for some weeks now, but I have frankly not had the energy to post about this stupid, bullying effort until today. I need a break from work, so I will point out what ChatGPT says about the use of the term Mormon outside of the context of the LDS Church:

Yes—“Mormon” has been used in a few contexts beyond referring to the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, though that’s by far its most common meaning today.

The term originally comes from the Book of Mormon, which believers regard as a sacred text translated by Joseph Smith. Because of that, “Mormon” became a nickname for members of that religious movement.

But outside that main use, you’ll find a few other meanings:

Historical or sectarian variations:
“Mormon” can refer broadly to the wider Latter Day Saint movement, not just the main Utah-based church. This includes smaller denominations that split off after Smith’s death.

Cultural shorthand:
In everyday language, people sometimes use “Mormon” to describe aspects of a distinct subculture—foodways, social norms, or communities historically shaped by LDS influence, especially in places like Utah or Idaho.

Place names and natural features:
The word shows up in geographic names in the American West, like “Mormon Trail” or “Mormon Lake,” reflecting 19th-century migration history.

Informal or outdated uses:

In the 19th century, critics or outsiders occasionally used “Mormon” more loosely or even pejoratively to describe perceived behaviors or beliefs, but those uses aren’t standard today.

I draw special attention to the point about cultural shorthand. That is where I see Mormon Stories operating. Mormon Stories is devoted to the stories and experiences of people who engage with Mormonism in some way. It discusses issues of interest to such people. It never sought to present itself as an official organ of the LDS Church. I hope that the LDS Church's efforts to attack Mormon Stories fail utterly. I consider their suit an attack on free speech. I worry that they will succeed because our country is no longer a land of civil rights so much as a land of corporate power. Corporations and plutocrats use their wealth and power to push the rest of us around for their own benefit. Even though I do not believe the LDS Church approaches the suit from the same place as, say, Microsoft or Elon Musk, their methods and aims still work against the freedom of individuals and smaller organizations to express themselves with generous, salutary latitude. I can't support that, and I will not remain silent on the issue.

I'm right there with you. Once power is acquired it is more often than not abused. And it is intolerable.

[Shulem]

I have been aware of the LDS Church's most recent efforts to attack John Dehlin's Mormon Stories for some weeks now, but I have frankly not had the energy to post about this stupid, bullying effort until today. I need a break from work, so I will point out what ChatGPT says about the use of the term Mormon outside of the context of the LDS Church:

You can't do this. You are breaking the rules! Do you want to be like MG?

12. All A.I.-generated text may only be posted within the appropriate forums' artificial intelligence megathreads, found here for Mormon-related topics and here for non-Mormon topics. Additionally, do not post any links to anything in those threads (just send the person whom you want to see the text a private message pointing it out). For additional information, see here.

[Shulem]

I got a wild hair up my (blank) and wanted to see what AI thought of board posters so I asked:

On the message board "Discuss Mormonism" there are many posters that have posted over the years. I would like a list of 20 posters (pseudonyms/names) such as Dr. Shades on that board that you think are the most interesting contributors, prominent posters on the board. Please provide a brief description that describes each of them. I would love to see what you think!

This:

The Discuss Mormonism board (and its historical iterations, often tied to the evolution of online ex-Mormon and critical discourse spaces originating from early message boards) has hosted a fascinating cast of characters over the decades. It acts as a unique cultural ecosystem blending deep ecclesiastical history, biting satire, sociological observation, and personal recovery narratives.

Highlighting 20 of the most prominent, enduring, or distinct contributors—spanning critical analysts, satirists, and faithful or nuanced voices who have populated these boards—offers a snapshot of the community's dynamic landscape:

1. Dr. Shades
Role: Founder and Administrator

Description: As the primary driving force and administrator behind the board, Dr. Shades acts as the central anchor of the community. Known for establishing a permissive yet structured environment for open discourse, he has overseen the board through its various shifts and migrations, maintaining a steady hand amidst intense ideological clashes.

2. Doctor Scratch
Role: Satirist and Institutional Watchdog

Description: One of the board's most legendary and prolific posters, Doctor Scratch is famous for razor-sharp, heavily detailed exposés and comedic takedowns of LDS apologetics (often referred to colloquially as "Mopologetics"). His investigative formatting and persistent tracking of institutional figures have made him a pillar of board culture.

3. Kishkumen
Role: Intellectual Historian and Cultural Critic

Description: Bringing a heavy dose of academic framing to the board, Kishkumen often contributes deep-dive threads concerning history, institutional power dynamics, and the philosophy of religion. His writing style bridges high-brow historical critique with the day-to-day rough-and-tumble of message board banter.

4. Gadianton
Role: Economic and Institutional Analyst

Description: Named after the clandestine secret combination from the Book of Mormon, Gadianton frequently analyzes the financial, structural, and corporate dimensions of the LDS Church. His posts often unpack real-estate holdings, church wealth, and administrative trends with meticulous detail.

5. Shulem
Role: Textual and Facsimile Archaeologist

Description: Shulem is best known for tireless, microscopic analyses of the Book of Abraham, Egyptian papyri, and Kinderhook plates. His posting style often relies heavily on visual aids, historical side-by-side comparisons, and a relentless focus on nineteenth-century linguistic and translation claims.

6. _Lemmie
Role: Logical Deconstructor and Fact-Checker

Description: Highly regarded for a calm, hyper-rational approach, _Lemmie excels at dissecting arguments piece-by-piece. When logical fallacies or historical whitewashing are brought to the table, _Lemmie acts as a precise analytical scalpel, cutting through rhetoric with clear source material.

7. drumdude
Role: News Curator and Media Watchdog

Description: Drumdude serves as a primary pulse-checker for current events related to Mormonism, frequently bringing in news articles, press releases, academic presentations (such as FairMormon/FAIR conferences), and general cultural touchpoints to spark community-wide discussions.

8. Physics Guy
Role: Nuanced/Faithful Intellectual Contributor

Description: Representing a rare bridge across ideological lines, Physics Guy frequently engages from a faithful or scientifically grounded perspective. Bringing an academic STEM background, he approaches religious claims with measured nuance, often challenging dogmatic assumptions from both sides of the aisle.

9. Markk
Role: Traditional Apologetic / Faithful Interlocutor

Description: Over the years, Markk has stood as a persistent voice representing orthodox or traditional perspectives. Willing to step directly into the lion's den to defend traditional doctrines, Markk's presence tests the boundaries of the board's pluralism.

10. MG (Mental Gymnast / MG the Deaf Messenger)
Role: Orthodox Defender and Dialogue Advocate

Description: A long-standing traditional member known for active engagement in cross-ideological debates. MG frequently calls out perceived biases among the board's majority demographic, offering an unfiltered window into committed, orthodox defense mechanisms.

11. simon southerton
Role: Scientific Consultant (DNA & Genetics)

Description: Bringing actual professional expertise to the table, Southerton—a biologist known for his work on Book of Mormon DNA issues—frequently breaks down genetic science, population movements, and institutional response essays with authority.

12. sock puppet
Role: Archival Historian and Biographer

Description: Sock puppet is celebrated for unearthing obscure biographical details, historical correspondence, and institutional documents. Posts by this user often read like mini-dissertations on nineteenth-century American religious figures.

13. Everybody Wang Chung
Role: Master of Absurdist Satire

Description: Renowned for comedic, theatrical, and deeply satirical thread titles and write-ups, Everybody Wang Chung targets the more absurd elements of modern apologetic culture and internet-era Mormon folklore with heavy doses of irony and wit.

14. Dean Robbers
Role: Cultural Historian and Wit

Description: Blending a deep knowledge of Utah/Mormon cultural markers with sharp literary timing, Dean Robbers frequently comments on the behavioral quirks, linguistic habits, and social conditioning common to people raised within the faith.

15. Limnor
Role: Scriptural Deconstructor

Description: Limnor dives deep into the textual mechanics of LDS scripture, utilizing literary criticism to evaluate internal narrative inconsistencies, dependencies on nineteenth-century thought (like view-of-the-heavens theories), and structural composition.

16. Hound of Heaven
Role: Philosophical and Theological Reflector

Description: Bringing a more contemplative, existential tone to the board, Hound of Heaven often frames discussions around the broader psychological, moral, and philosophical implications of leaving or defending a high-demand religion.

17. Beastie
Role: Sociological and Rhetorical Analyst

Description: Historically recognized for deeply thoughtful, highly articulate breakdowns of how religious groups handle dissent, cognitive dissonance, and institutional image management. Beastie’s posts often elevate the discourse into genuine sociological inquiry.

18. Consiglieri
Role: The Legal and Psychological Observer

Description: Often applying a combination of legal acumen and wry psychological insight, Consiglieri examines how church leadership navigates institutional crises, ecclesiastical discipline, and the internal culture of obedience.

19. harmony
Role: Empathy Anchor and Community Historian

Description: Representing the pastoral side of the board, harmony has spent years offering grounded, empathetic support to individuals navigating the painful process of faith transition, family friction, and emotional deconstruction.

20. Scratch (or other rolling community "Fresh Voices")
Role: The Perpetual Newcomer / Transitioner

Description: While not a single permanent user, a vital fixture of the board's ecology is the rotating cast of raw, newly transitioning voices arriving every week in deep crisis. Their collective presence shapes the board's identity, keeping it from becoming an isolated echo chamber by forcing long-timers to continuously re-engage with the raw, day-one pain and confusion of faith crisis.

[Gadianton]

(I couldn't find the AI thread, mods can feel free to move this there and bump the thread if that's still a rule. Should this post be allowed to stand, I request participants to limit any AI response to 300 words, and only one post in response per post of my own.)

I asked Gemini without personalization the following question in a fresh browser: Were Mormons Persecuted in Nazi Germany?

As an institution, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) was not systematically persecuted or banned by the Nazi regime, unlike groups like Jews, Romani people, or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Church-Level Accommodations and Neutrality

• Deference to Authority: Church leaders and members emphasized the 12th Article of Faith, which teaches obedience to civil laws and governments, instructing German members to cooperate with state authorities and remain politically neutral.
• Cultural Alignment: To avoid conflict with the regime, local leaders and members purged Jewish references from hymns and lesson materials, participated in civic obligations like the Hitler Youth and Wehrmacht (German military), and avoided anti-Nazi rhetoric.
• Genealogical Interest: The Nazi focus on Aryan ancestry and genealogy increased local interest in family history work, which aligned well with Mormon practice.

Surveillance and Restrictions

• Monitoring: The Gestapo and SS kept the roughly 13,000 to 15,000 German Mormons under close surveillance, compiling extensive dossiers and attending worship services to monitor for sedition.
• Censorship: The regime banned specific church literature (such as James E. Talmage’s Articles of Faith) and restricted youth scouting programs, forcing young people into the state-run Hitler Youth.

Individual Resistance and Persecution

• Dissidents: While the church as an organization survived largely unhindered, individual members who actively opposed the regime faced severe consequences.
• Helmuth Hübener: A teenage German Mormon youth named Helmuth Hübener ran an underground anti-Nazi resistance and-pamphlet group; he was arrested, tried by the Volksgerichtshof (People's Court), and beheaded at age 17. Other individual members were imprisoned in concentration camps or aided persecuted neighbors.
Would you like more details about Helmuth Hübener's resistance group or how the church handled its wartime history afterward?

Let me get this straight. The Mormon Church emphasized political neutrality under Hitler, but by golly, stood tall in Idaho to oppose the bill allowing a woman's right to choose on the grounds of moral compulsion?

The question here: is MG a Helmuth Hübener or one of the vast majority of lackeys for the authoritarian leader?

(my follow up question to AI, which I will post later, regards how well Mormon kids adapted to Hitler youth.)