Conference - sell your car and take on debt to pay your tithing

[I Have Questions]

I was accurate in my depiction of the podcast.

Others my think differently. They are wrong.

Critics are using tithing and the church financials to try and tear down the leadership. It's just another blunt tool.

Regards,
MG

Read the OP again and address the topic - is it good advice that members were given to sell their assets and go into debt in order to donate money to the Church? Yes or No?

[Gadianton]

MG, you're really suggesting I listen to a right-wing podcaster talking about Tucker Carlson and Candice Owens in order to learn about what tithing is for the LDS church? This is how far you've strayed? You can't find anything in the scriptures or on LDS.org that can explain tithing?

I agree with IHQ that you're not on topic. I can't imagine your podcast is going to say anything about tithing that resolves the problems of leaders taking advantage of the poor or people in hard circumstances. Please explain your "link and run".

The law of tithing is a sham and if there is a God, I suspect the leaders of your church will be taken to the woodshed over it. In the Old Testament, while I'm not big on slitting the throats of animals, it's at least worth pointing out that when the poor animal is killed and burned, that it only benefited the Lord -- a man of war, the son of the big guy as you know him, as it offered a sweet savor. Killing the best of the flock rather than the worst makes it even more self-destructive from a husbandry perspective.

As much as I don't like the rule of the Old Testament, I will at least agree that it makes sense in terms of "sacrifice". Because nobody benefits from it but God, it's at least believable that it could be done with right intentions. When sacrifice moves from giving to God directly to "giving to God" via giving to a human intermediary, and especially when the intermediary is wealthy and the giver is poor, it's now a horrifically problematic doctrine. The alternative hypothesis will always be far more believable, that the sacrifice is to help the intermediary get rich and affluent.

[MG 2.0]

Referring to the portion of the podcast I linked to was done with the purpose of reinforcing what members of the church believe/practice. That tithing is a commandment of the Lord with attendant blessings/purposes.

There is a tendency among critics of the church to always circle back around to money/finances as being an underlying "dark belly" for the church. The story referred to in this thread does have a connection with the larger picture in regard to God's purposes and blessings for His Saints.

Of course, you don't have to believe that.

Right wing, left wing...I'll take opinion/truth from various sources as I consider what makes sense to me. I'm not closed minded as some are wont to be nowadays.

In this video clip, if nothing else, it is worth listening to Elder Bednar's response to the upfront and honest questions he was asked.

Critics, of course, are not going to like/accept his answers. And even ignore and not listen to what he says.

Don't want to burst those bubbles of unbelief!

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Referring to the portion of the podcast I linked to was done with the purpose of reinforcing what members of the church believe/practice. That tithing is a commandment of the Lord with attendant blessings/purposes.

That’s not the subject of the thread.

There is a tendency among critics of the church to always circle back around to money/finances as being an underlying "dark belly" for the church. The story referred to in this thread does have a connection with the larger picture in regard to God's purposes and blessings for His Saints.

Nobody is circling back. This is a thread about a specific talk at General Conference in which the speaker stated that members should sell assets and go into debt in order to pay tithing. Do you think that’s good advice for members?

Please try to stay on topic.
Thanks, in anticipation
IHQ

[MG 2.0]

From the talk being referred to...the speaker starts off by saying:

The prophet Alma asked several penetrating questions to help the Church members in Zarahemla have “a mighty change” of heart as disciples of Jesus Christ (Alma 5:12). Shortly thereafter, he taught the people of Gideon. Something he taught caught my attention as I read, “I have come having great hopes … that ye had humbled yourselves before God, and that … ye were not in the awful dilemma that our brethren were in at Zarahemla” (Alma 7:3; emphasis added).

Later in the same sermon, he repeated, “I had much desire that ye were not in the state of dilemma like your brethren” (Alma 7:18; emphasis added). What was this awful dilemma? The footnote in verse 18 leads us to a possible answer. The Apostle James taught us what this dilemma could be: “A double minded man is unstable in all his ways” (James 1:8).

A double-minded person is one who is wavering, indecisive, or conflicted, someone who lacks commitment to a single purpose or belief. One way to overcome double-mindedness is to learn to put God first in our lives. Jesus Christ taught, “Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness”

I would hazard a guess that those being addressed in this sermon were from various classes and income levels (to use today's language), yet the same commandment/obedience applied to all.

The important teaching here has to do with "double mindedness" and putting God first.

I will leave it to those reading here to determine what that might mean and how it might apply to any one of us.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

For a refresher, this is the General Conference address where members were counselled to sell assets and go into debt in order to donate to the Church and which is the topic of the thread.

In a remarkable anecdote, one of the leaders of a Church with hundreds of billions of dollars in liquid funds just sat there earning eye watering amounts of compound interest, which doesn’t get used for anything other than earning more interest, gave the following advice to members about handing over their eternal protection money…

I recall a powerful experience I had many years ago that taught me how to put God first in my life. As a young married father, I was called to serve in a branch presidency. Elder Clinton L. Cutler of the Seventy came to speak to our branch. After the meeting, I had an opportunity to talk with him.

Sensing that I had something on my mind, he asked, “Is there something bothering you?”

“Yes,” I replied, “I am having financial difficulties in my business. I have fallen behind in my payment of tithes and offerings.”

He then asked, “Do you have anything of value?”

I don’t recall what else he said. I pondered his question for many days. The only thing I had of value was a car that I needed in my efforts to grow my business. However, I concluded that I should at least make an effort to sell my car, so I cleaned and polished it and placed an ad to sell it.

I want to be clear that Elder Cutler did not ask me to sell my car. This came to me after pondering and desiring to put God first.

A few days later, a man came to the house to see the car. He seemed interested; he drove it and came back to discuss the details. He gave me his business card, and I realized he represented a car dealership. I was nervous about what would surely happen next—the haggling back and forth over the price.

He asked me, “How much do you want for the car?”

I told him I needed a precise amount. I had calculated what I needed to pay off the loan on the car and pay my tithing.

He then said very calmly, “OK, I will come back in a few days with a check.”

He thanked me and left. I could not believe it. No arguing, no haggling, no negotiating.

A few days later, he came back with a check for the amount I had requested. I was surprised and amazed as he drove off with the car. I deposited the check and paid my tithing.

As I contemplated what had occurred, I realized that I did not have a car to continue with my business. While I was thinking about what to do, a friend called me and said, “Jorge, you like my car, don’t you?” At that point I would have liked any car! He reminded me that his wife was having twins and that he needed to buy a larger vehicle and wondered if I would be willing to take over his car payments. It was a miracle!

So far the Church has let this advice stand. It remains to be seen if they will disavow it or have Becerra walk it back (like they did with Poelman).

[canpakes]

The important teaching here has to do with "double mindedness" and putting God first.

A thought exercise: Is it possible to put God first with something other than money?

[Marcus]

For a refresher, this is the General Conference address where members were counselled to sell assets and go into debt in order to donate to the Church and which is the topic of the thread.

In a remarkable anecdote, one of the leaders of a Church with hundreds of billions of dollars in liquid funds just sat there earning eye watering amounts of compound interest, which doesn’t get used for anything other than earning more interest, gave the following advice to members about handing over their eternal protection money…

So far the Church has let this advice stand. It remains to be seen if they will disavow it or have Becerra walk it back (like they did with Poelman).

This bit of tonedeaf advice from 2001 is quoted in the same talk:

...President Gordon B. Hinckley taught: “I know that the people are in difficult circumstances. I know that many of them are unemployed. I know that many of them work for very meager wages. I know that they live in simple and inadequate little houses, the only thing they can afford. I believe they will not walk out of poverty unless they pay their tithing. … Now is the season in which to establish strength in the gospel, and that involves the payment of tithing. … It is obedience to the commandment of the Lord that really matters” (General Authority training meeting, Oct. 2, 2001)...

[bolding added by me.][also, a reminder to mentalgymnasts everywhere that there is a proper way to use ellipses and it was done here.]


The part I bolded really rings hollow since we found out that a big reason lds leaders hid their vast horde is because they were afraid members might stop paying tithing. Also bolded because it is blatantly untrue.

[MG 2.0]

The important teaching here has to do with "double mindedness" and putting God first.

A thought exercise: Is it possible to put God first with something other than money?

I think it comes down to our priorities and devotion. That is something that each person needs to determine for themselves. Within the church organization one of the evidences of one's priorities and devotion to the Lord and His Church is making a sacrifice of time and talents and whatever else God might bless us with.

Regards,
MG

[canpakes]

Within the church organization one of the evidences of one's priorities and devotion to the Lord and His Church is making a sacrifice of time and talents and whatever else God might bless us with.

I agree with the bolded part, as ‘time and talents’ have value, and many members give freely of either or both, to their ward and the Church.

Do you believe that there will ever come a time when the Church recognizes this, and decides to not demand solely money for tithing ?