That we may have joy

[huckelberry]

I have wondered from time to time about how to relate to pieces of LDS teaching which might have special value. I remember when the LDS idea of Adam falling that we might be was a very good idea. I thought of how some versions of Christian belief use the fall as showing how we are fundamentally corrupt. This can undermine human confidence so people can be controlled by authority figures who always know best. Horrors, we need the confidence to learn, grow, accomplish things, and find the ability to understand and care about people. Mormonism has an effort to open the door out of the self-doubt and self-dislike which breed abusive authority.

One could wonder if LDS culture has lost much of this. It sounds like controlling authority has increased and fear of guilt has increased.

I can remember after leaving the church thinking the LDS view of the fall might miss some of the seriousness of human limitation injury. The fall story has ambiguity and people have projected different views upon it. People have wondered why gaining knowledge is so negative as to warrant death (or those absurd ideas of changing the whole world first introducing death). I have wondered if a special kind of knowledge is in view, knowing how to hurt others for self gain. I find that closer to some sense but a bit artificial.

I am, in my mind, considering a bigger step. I think the story is perhaps better understood as a whole not sequential parts. Parts create the image. The whole is when we live in real time the possibilities of good and evil become part of experience. Yes, the story sees the human problem of evil, but that is not all. We live in real possibilities for good.

[Gadianton]

It's an interesting suggestion how much doctrine itself might predict how people actually live. And it is interesting how the light version of the fall and the beliefs about the importance of free agency have collapsed so readily to authoritarianism, and not just in our generation but under the hand of the diabolical Brigham Young.

In my view Mormons have their own virtual reality that they've invented that includes mythology about their leaders and that runs parallel to the real corporate church. Every lesson ultimately is aimed at obedience -- beginning with financial obedience -- to the church. Mormons sort of blow this off. They are more into the idea that they believe in prophets than into taking the prophet that they have very seriously.

Everyone suffers through conference and priesthood session just to get to the big meal and ice creams waiting to award their patience in Pavlovian fashion.

[huckelberry]

It's an interesting suggestion how much doctrine itself might predict how people actually live. And it is interesting how the light version of the fall and the beliefs about the importance of free agency have collapsed so readily to authoritarianism, and not just in our generation but under the hand of the diabolical Brigham Young.

In my view Mormons have their own virtual reality that they've invented that includes mythology about their leaders and that runs parallel to the real corporate church. Every lesson ultimately is aimed at obedience -- beginning with financial obedience -- to the church. Mormons sort of blow this off. They are more into the idea that they believe in prophets than into taking the prophet that they have very seriously.

Everyone suffers through conference and priesthood session just to get to the big meal and ice creams waiting to award their patience in Pavlovian fashion.

Gadianton, your food observation is both funny and I suspect perceptive. I suppose the simplicity of obedience, habit, and food reward is effective and limits the problems of freedom. Leaders find it attractive.

Of course I am wondering about the patterns of Christian nationalism as well as Mormon versions.

In the Bible version of the story, God does not say how awful Adam and Eve are but treats them with hopeful concern. I think people seeking to control others give people shame and fear instead.

[Gadianton]

Of course I am wondering about the patterns of Christian nationalism as well as Mormon versions.

In the Bible version of the story, God does not say how awful Adam and Eve are but treats them with hopeful concern. I think people seeking to control others give people shame and fear instead.

Again we're back to the question of how much doctrine is ever really tied to action. People on the inside of any religion see themselves completely differently from how the rest of humanity sees them. Well, it's possible that religion amounts to not much more than a way for a community to massively overvalue themselves such as to reap the rewards of positivity.

Mormons within my lifetime rode the waves of EV trends -- end times, Satanic panic, and that kind of stuff. The problem with Mormonism, is it gradually turned into an investment fund that relies on community momentum to create the narrative. Because the leaders have been absent, getting excited about real estate and tithing profits and taking their families to fancy church-paid lunches, the saints have no direction. There has long been that Skousenite core, every Mormon family owned at least one book by Cleon, and as Christian nationalism completely swept over everything remotely Christian through social media, Mormons have something to feel excited about.

[malkie]

Of course I am wondering about the patterns of Christian nationalism as well as Mormon versions.

In the Bible version of the story, God does not say how awful Adam and Eve are but treats them with hopeful concern. I think people seeking to control others give people shame and fear instead.

Again we're back to the question of how much doctrine is ever really tied to action. People on the inside of any religion see themselves completely differently from how the rest of humanity sees them. Well, it's possible that religion amounts to not much more than a way for a community to massively overvalue themselves such as to reap the rewards of positivity.

Mormons within my lifetime rode the waves of EV trends -- end times, Satanic panic, and that kind of stuff. The problem with Mormonism, is it gradually turned into an investment fund that relies on community momentum to create the narrative. Because the leaders have been absent, getting excited about real estate and tithing profits and taking their families to fancy church-paid lunches, the saints have no direction. There has long been that Skousenite core, every Mormon family owned at least one book by Cleon, and as Christian nationalism completely swept over everything remotely Christian through social media, Mormons have something to feel excited about.

As a new member (50+ years ago) I absolutely devoured Cleon's books. I'm not sure now how exactly I felt then, but I suspect that I took them to be almost as "authentic" as Sunday School etc., as did many of the members I knew. And Added Upon was the gospel in dramatized narrative form.

I was young and foolish. Now, being old and foolish, I know a bit better

Edited to add "how exactly I felt then" for clarity

[huckelberry]

I have never read Skousen and my LDS family did not have any of his books or have any inclination toward Birch-related views. But yes, I understand he likes freedom and so do I so there must be some overlap. Yes, I see the Constitution as very valuable and see communism as a train wreck.

In my youth there was a young man who was a youth leader, later seminary teacher, who was full of enthusiasm and love of ideas. At first, he inspired me with appreciation of LDS ideas and values. Over a period of some years he became obsessed with building positive thinking for salesmanship. It was rather awful. He then slid into John Birch which, as far as I could tell, sucked the life out of him. He went from enjoying making music to white knuckled positive thinking fighting the enemy.

I did not see freedom in the passionate defense of freedom. I do not know how much is not trust of other people's freedom or just resentment for not having enough success.

[huckelberry]

Before commenting about Cleon Skousen I did Google some general information about his views to refresh and perhaps expand my awareness of his ideas. The politics sound pretty standard John Birch. I was not aware he held the idea that intelligences of different levels govern the actions of the physical world. I sort of remember such an idea from Pratt. I thought it to bizarre to give much consideration. Growing up I had a lot of enthusiasm for science and the process of discovery.

Yesterday I found myself wondering if a person holding the Skousen idea would have any real trust in science. Skousen's idea would mean things function directly under authority command. To understand one looks to the authority, church. People exploring outside of that are leading folks astray. Such a general view could be fertile ground to imagining creeping socialism as a front for a diabolical communist take over.

[Gadianton]

As a new member (50+ years ago) I absolutely devoured Cleon's books. I'm not sure now how exactly I felt then, but I suspect that I took them to be almost as "authentic" as Sunday School etc., as did many of the members I knew. And Added Upon was the gospel in dramatized narrative form.

That's fascinating, Malkie. It sounds like the LDS conspiracy stuff was more interesting to you than the main doctrines. It was the same for me. Fascinating, given that you were a convert in another part of the world and a few years ahead of me. Confirms my belief that Chapel Mormonism is (or was) a global phenomena.

[Gabriel]

I have wondered from time to time about how to relate to pieces of LDS teaching which might have special value. I remember when the LDS idea of Adam falling that we might be was a very good idea. I thought of how some versions of Christian belief use the fall as showing how we are fundamentally corrupt. This can undermine human confidence so people can be controlled by authority figures who always know best. Horrors, we need the confidence to learn, grow, accomplish things, and find the ability to understand and care about people. Mormonism has an effort to open the door out of the self-doubt and self-dislike which breed abusive authority.

One could wonder if LDS culture has lost much of this. It sounds like controlling authority has increased and fear of guilt has increased.

I can remember after leaving the church thinking the LDS view of the fall might miss some of the seriousness of human limitation injury. The fall story has ambiguity and people have projected different views upon it. People have wondered why gaining knowledge is so negative as to warrant death (or those absurd ideas of changing the whole world first introducing death). I have wondered if a special kind of knowledge is in view, knowing how to hurt others for self gain. I find that closer to some sense but a bit artificial.

I am, in my mind, considering a bigger step. I think the story is perhaps better understood as a whole not sequential parts. Parts create the image. The whole is when we live in real time the possibilities of good and evil become part of experience. Yes, the story sees the human problem of evil, but that is not all. We live in real possibilities for good.

Thank you, Huckleberry,

Off and on, I've been thinking about this post for some time. For now, I only want to point out one thing (and I don't think that it's an insignificant thing.) We were not brought up to believe in "original sin" per se; we were brought up to believe that we were numbered among the "valiant" in the premortal existence. And it stood to reason that if we are the valiant, then there were others not so. They made poor choices before they were even born. And they have no one to blame but themselves. In that sense, THEY are the "original sinners"; and -- to add insult to injury -- they don't even have the luxury of blaming Adam for their plight.

[huckelberry]

I have wondered from time to time about how to relate to pieces of LDS teaching which might have special value. I remember when the LDS idea of Adam falling that we might be was a very good idea. I thought of how some versions of Christian belief use the fall as showing how we are fundamentally corrupt. This can undermine human confidence so people can be controlled by authority figures who always know best. Horrors, we need the confidence to learn, grow, accomplish things, and find the ability to understand and care about people. Mormonism has an effort to open the door out of the self-doubt and self-dislike which breed abusive authority.

One could wonder if LDS culture has lost much of this. It sounds like controlling authority has increased and fear of guilt has increased.

I can remember after leaving the church thinking the LDS view of the fall might miss some of the seriousness of human limitation injury. The fall story has ambiguity and people have projected different views upon it. People have wondered why gaining knowledge is so negative as to warrant death (or those absurd ideas of changing the whole world first introducing death). I have wondered if a special kind of knowledge is in view, knowing how to hurt others for self gain. I find that closer to some sense but a bit artificial.

I am, in my mind, considering a bigger step. I think the story is perhaps better understood as a whole not sequential parts. Parts create the image. The whole is when we live in real time the possibilities of good and evil become part of experience. Yes, the story sees the human problem of evil, but that is not all. We live in real possibilities for good.

Thank you, Huckleberry,

Off and on, I've been thinking about this post for some time. For now, I only want to point out one thing (and I don't think that it's an insignificant thing.) We were not brought up to believe in "original sin" per se; we were brought up to believe that we were numbered among the "valiant" in the premortal existence. And it stood to reason that if we are the valiant, then there were others not so. They made poor choices before they were even born. And they have no one to blame but themselves. In that sense, THEY are the "original sinners"; and -- to add insult to injury -- they don't even have the luxury of blaming Adam for their plight.

Gabriel, I realize you are right to point out this aspect of Mormon teachings. I may have brushed it aside a bit in my memory due to the ugly extensions of it. (People born into disadvantage due to pre-existence faults or failures.)

I like to think I rejected those extensions as erroneous personal opinions. I suspect growing up I was influenced anyway. The proposal that one is special is easily accepted. Gadianton mentioned the value or rewards of positivity. Yes, but I think that the human corrosion of the idea that others are born Into difficulty due to their own failing is too high a price for a shot of positivity.