“Wither she did go” ??

[Shulem]

I think of the Hagoth episode as “translating” the failed trip to Canada to sell the copywrite.

Cowdery, Page, Knight, and Stowell did travel from New York to Canada in 1830. I wonder if they talked about treasure seeking?

I think Joseph Smith pictured Hagoth heading up the Susquehanna river.

- Doc

Thank you, Doc.

And Captain Kidd too!

Documentation and contemporary literature proves that Captain Kidd's vessel was referred to using the feminine pronouns "she" and "her". In addition, treasure fever stirring up folklore and legend about Kidd supposedly traveling up the Susquehanna River was embraced by Joseph Smith's adventurism. So, I see a fair connection/association between that of Hagoth & Kidd. Delmarva was the land of Nephi!

• Adventure Galley, also known as Adventure, was an English merchant ship captained by Scottish sea captain William Kidd. She was a type of hybrid ship that combined square rigged sails with oars to give her manoeuvrability in both windy and calm conditions.
• Between April 1696 and April 1698, she travelled thousands of miles across the Atlantic and Indian Oceans in search of pirates but failed to find any until nearly the end of her travels.
• Adventure Galley succeeded in capturing two vessels off India and brought them back to Madagascar, but by the spring of 1698 the ship's hull had become so rotten and leaky that she was no longer seaworthy. She was stripped of anything movable and sunk off the north-eastern coast of Madagascar. Her remains have not yet been located.

Wikipedia, Adventure Galley

In referencing the Polynesians and Maori Saints in New Zealand:

I would like to say to you brethren and sisters from New Zealand, you are some of Hagoth's people, and there is No Perhaps about it!

Stupid Mormon prophet!

Is not the real story about Hagoth being a secret similitude that is imbedded in Smith's story to represent Captain Kidd heading up the Susquehanna River with treasures in hand?



So, the good folks of Harmony Pennsylvania are some of Hagoth's people!



Mormons are so stupid!

[Limnor]

I think of the Hagoth episode as “translating” the failed trip to Canada to sell the copywrite.

Cowdery, Page, Knight, and Stowell did travel from New York to Canada in 1830. I wonder if they talked about treasure seeking?

I believe it’s likely they did talk about treasure on that journey, but the term “treasure” had taken on a different meaning.

Isaac Hale and Josiah Stowell almost certainly believed in stories of buried pirate treasure, especially Kidd’s. Stowell’s willingness to hire Joseph as a treasure seer makes sense in that scenario. Whether Kidd actually buried treasure didn’t seem to matter as much as people believed it, setting up opportunity money digging and seer-stone use. I can see a kernel that belief ultimately leading to the gold Bible.

However, the story of Hagoth, from a symbolic or allegorical model, doesn't naturally line up with the Kidd legends. They seem to fit better with an actual journey or expedition made by members of Joseph’s inner circle. That’s why the Canada trip has appeal to me as a candidate.

A group travels north on a mission connected to the publication of the Book of Mormon and then returns with disappointing results, never really spoken of again.

My interpretation is the episode had been presented as a prophecy that was supposed to result in a return with good news and treasure associated with the book. Instead, it failed, therefore the prophecy had to be written out of existence, along with Hagoth.

In referencing the Polynesians and Maori Saints in New Zealand:

I would like to say to you brethren and sisters from New Zealand, you are some of Hagoth's people, and there is No Perhaps about it!

This is probably most astonishing part—the Hagoth episode blossomed into something like this. I mean wow.

[Rivendale]

In referencing the Polynesians and Maori Saints in New Zealand:

I would like to say to you brethren and sisters from New Zealand, you are some of Hagoth's people, and there is No Perhaps about it!

Stupid Mormon prophet!

Is not the real story about Hagoth being a secret similitude that is imbedded in Smith's story to represent Captain Kidd heading up the Susquehanna River with treasures in hand?



So, the good folks of Harmony Pennsylvania are some of Hagoth's people!



Mormons are so stupid!

Was that before or after he held a court on his cat and sentenced him to hang followed by a decapitation?

[Shulem]

In referencing the Polynesians and Maori Saints in New Zealand: President Joseph F. Smith taught, "I would like to say to you brethren and sisters from New Zealand, you are some of Hagoth's people, and there is No Perhaps about it!"

This is probably most astonishing part—the Hagoth episode blossomed into something like this. I mean wow.

Curious, how we get bits of denial from Wikipedia in reference to Hagoth:

• Hagoth holds a prominent place in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' theology, especially in the context of the church's connections with Polynesians.
• Although The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not have an official position on the matter, some Polynesians consider themselves descended from the peoples described in the Book of Mormon, including participants in Hagoth's Nephite voyages.
• The topic was addressed in a letter to the president of the Samoan mission on 6 September 1972 by N. Eldon Tanner and Marion G. Romney, who were then serving as counselors in the First Presidency. They approached it briefly and cautiously, noting in their letter, "You ask who the Polynesians are – whether they are Nephites or Lamanites. This matter has been the subject of much speculation in the past. However, we have no evidence from the scriptures or revelations where the Lord has spoken of where these people came from or their ancestry".
• The ethnic affiliation of Polynesians within Mormon beliefs remains uncertain, particularly considering Hagoth's clearly Nephite origins. Contemporary church leadership speaks cautiously about Hagoth and the origins of Polynesians.
• Regardless of the debates surrounding Hagoth, he remains an important figure in Polynesian religious tradition, passed down and maintained through generations.
• The existence of Hagoth and the hypotheses associated with him have not been confirmed by external sources. According to the overwhelming majority of researchers, the inhabitants of Polynesia most likely originate from Southeast Asia.

Deceptive Mormon apologia in shifting away from past claims/teachings is simply staggering. Church leaders have made solemn Spirit® filled declarations that can never be erased from Church history:

O God, our Eternal Father, on this significant and hallowed occasion, we unite our hearts and lift our voices in gratitude, praise and honor to Thy Holy name. We express gratitude that to these fertile Islands Thou didst guide descendants of Father Lehi, and hast enabled them to prosper, to develop and to become associated in history with leading and influential nations among mankind.

Again, there was something prophetic about it. Here were two great strains of the house of Israel and the children of Ephraim from the isles of Britain, and the children of Lehi from the isles of the Pacific."

I thought to read to you a sacred scripture which pertains especially to you the islanders of the Pacific. It is in the sixty-third chapter of Alma. [Kimball read the account of Hagoth] And so it seems to me rather clear that your ancestors moved northward and crossed a part of the South Pacific. You did not bring your records with you, but you brought much food and provisions. And so we have a great congregation of people in the South seas who came from the Nephites, and who came from the land southward and went to the land northward, which could have been Hawaii. And then the further settlement could have been a move southward again to all of these islands and even to New Zealand. The Lord knows what he is doing when he sends his people from one place to another. That was the scattering of Israel. Some of them remained in America and went from Alaska to the southern point. And others of you came this direction.

Thus sayeth the LORD:

By the power and influence of the Holy Ghost [Sweet Satan], through the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Rats, given in the Holy Temple of poo-poo-pee-pee:

O God, our Eternal Father, on this significant and hallowed occasion, we unite our hearts and lift our voices in gratitude, praise and honor to Thy Holy name. We express gratitude that to these fertile Islands Thou didst guide descendants of Father Lehi, and hast enabled them to prosper, to develop and to become associated in history with leading and influential nations among mankind.

David McKay,

"Suck my fat one, you cheap dime store hood."

Deceptive Mormon apologia in shifting away from past claims/teachings is simply staggering. Church leaders have made solemn Spirit® filled declarations that can never be erased from Church history:

Here is a perfect example to prove how a Church President solemnly and in the most sacred prophetic manner declared before God while under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit®, that islanders were descendants of Lehi, via Hagoth of course:

O God, the Eternal Father...

<snip>

O God, our Eternal Father, we pray Thee to bless the Presidency of Thy Church, Thy servants Heber J. Grant, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose. May these men, O Father, be guided by the unerring counsels of Thy Holy Spirit, day by day. May they be even as a threefold cord that cannot be broken. May they see eye to eye in all matters for the up building of the Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth.

<snip>

We thank Thee, that thousands and ten of thousands of the descendants of Lehi, in this favored land, have come to a knowledge of the gospel, many of whom have endured faithfully to the end of their lives.

<snip>

We thank Thee, O Father, this day, that the promise made in a dream to Thy servant William W. Cluff, by Thy Prophet Brigham Young, that the day would come when a temple should be erected in this land, is fulfilled before our eyes.

<snip>

And now that this temple is completed and ordinance work will soon be commenced, we beseech Thee, O Father, that Thou wilt open the way before the members of the Church in these lands, as well as of the natives of New Zealand, and of all the Pacific islands, to secure the genealogies of their forefathers, so that they may come into this holy house and become saviors unto their ancestors.

<snip>

We beseech Thee, O Lord, that Thou wilt stay the hand of the destroyer among the natives of this land, and give unto them increasing virility and more abundant health, that they may not perish as a people, but that from this time forth they may increase in numbers and in strength and influence, that all the great and glorious promises made concerning the descendants of Lehi, may be fulfilled in them; that they may grow in vigor of body and of mind, and above all in a love for Thee and Thy Son, and increase in diligence and in faithfulness in the keeping of the commandments which have come to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

<snip>

O God, our Heavenly and Eternal Father, sanctify the words which we have spoken, and accept of the dedication of this house, we beseech Thee, in the name of Thine Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ our Redeemer.

SPOKEN BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT:

Preparing the Dedicatory Prayer

• President Grant considered delivering the dedicatory prayer without previous preparation, intending instead to pray “as the Spirit might suggest in the temple.” However, on the day before the first dedicatory session, President Grant dictated some notes to Arthur Winter of what he wanted to include in the prayer. That night he dictated part of the prayer to Winter and the rest the next morning.
• President Grant dictated the dedicatory prayer the evening before, and the morning of, the first dedicatory session of the temple. Of the prayer he stated, “and after reading it I feel it is so far superior to any ordinary prayers that I have delivered that I am constrained to acknowledge the inspiration of the Lord to me in its preparation.”

Additionally:

Hawaii Temple

Rudger J. Clawson [Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] later spoke:

• “It is the greatest day in all the history of Hawaii for here stands a temple reared to the Most High God.”
• “What must the feelings of Father Lehi be at this moment. He must be touched with a deep sense of gratitude for what the Lord is doing for his posterity. The key is turned and the door is unlocked for the full blessings of salvation to the posterity of Lehi.”

The evidence presented in the above posts concerning President Grant's declaration during the Hawaiian temple dedication is binding when it comes to connecting Holy Ghost revelations with modern prophetic claims regarding Hagoth. Grant was not speaking as a man but was speaking as a prophet, seer, and revelator under the direct influence of the Holy Ghost®. That is binding on the entire Church!

Here a couple of Heartland links from Book of Mormon Evidence that seem to support those claims:

• W.M. Bromley the first Mission President to the Maori’s sent by Pres Joseph F. Smith 1881
• Lehi and Polynesia

Without question, Smith used modern (non-biblical) sailor talk: her & she. But did he borrow phraseology from the Bible and plug it into a doctrinal setting based on a mariner's viewpoint?

But now, behold, they are (1) led about by Satan, even as (2) chaff is driven before the wind, or (3) as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they.

1. "led about by Satan" (Mormon) "turned aside after Satan" (1 Tim 5:15)
2. "chaff is driven before the wind" (Mormon) "chaff that is driven with the whirlwind" (Hos 13:3)
3. "as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves" (Mormon) "like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed" (James 1:6)

And then this seals the deal:

But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, (1) without sail or (2) anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they.

1. (1) "tossed about upon the waves, without sail" (Mormon) "Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail" (Isa 33:23)
2. "or anchor" (Mormon), "which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast" (Ether 12:4) "Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast," (Heb 6:19)

Notice that three specific elements are taken from Hebrews 6:19 and are directly inserted by Moroni Smith into Ether 12:4:

• "which hope" "which hope"
• "an anchor of the soul" "an anchor to the souls"
• "sure and stedfast" "sure and steadfast"

THAT is plagiarism by the numbers!



The word "anchor" in singular form is found only once in the entire Bible! ONE TIME! There is no question in my mind that Joseph Smith knowingly lifted the verse from Hebrews and employed it directly into the Book of Mormon. There can be no doubt about it! Smith follows the exact format used in Hebrews in associating the *anchor* with hope for the soul and being both sure and steadfast.

The combination with the words and concepts working together is all the proof we need that Smith was stealing from the Bible. Smith faked his translations and plagiarized biblical text. Anyone should be able to recognize this and if they can't it's because their head is up their ass.

What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

Stupid Mormons.

[Gabriel]

The word "anchor" in singular form is found only once in the entire Bible! ONE TIME! There is no question in my mind that Joseph Smith knowingly lifted the verse from Hebrews and employed it directly into the Book of Mormon. There can be no doubt about it! Smith follows the exact format used in Hebrews in associating the *anchor* with hope for the soul and being both sure and steadfast.

The combination with the words and concepts working together is all the proof we need that Smith was stealing from the Bible. Smith faked his translations and plagiarized biblical text. Anyone should be able to recognize this and if they can't it's because their head is up their ass.

What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

Stupid Mormons.

That makes sense. And it further reinforces the obvious suspicion that the "Hall of Faith" in Ether 12 is just a riff on the "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews 11.

[Shulem]

Smith follows the exact format used in Hebrews in associating the *anchor* with hope for the soul and being both sure and steadfast.

The combination with the words and concepts working together is all the proof we need that Smith was stealing from the Bible.

That makes sense. And it further reinforces the obvious suspicion that the "Hall of Faith" in Ether 12 is just a riff on the "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews 11.

Yes, you are spot on, Gabriel.

Ether rips on the Hebrews riff ("by faith"). And here's the kicker and something you might find quite interesting: The words ("by faith") are not found in the Old Testament and Jesus never said them either! He never said, "by faith." It was strictly a convention used later by the apostles (37 times) in their proselyting efforts! Nearly half of them are in Hebrews 11.

Now, things get interesting.

The riff in Ether repeats "by faith" a total of 11 times whereas it's 16 times in Hebrews chapter 11. Interestingly enough, Moroni continues the riff in the book of Moroni chapter 7 for a total of 5 more times which matches that of Hebrews, exactly! Is that a coincidence? Perhaps. Or not!

Now, it should be noted that "by faith" is only mentioned 1 other time in the entire Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 10:17) while prophesying of the coming of Christ. So, it appears the Moroni riff is simply trying to keep up with the Hebrews riff and it does so perfectly by the numbers. Anyone with half a brain should recognize that Joseph Smith was robbing the Bible in order to prop up his own work.

Again, I repeat, this unique three-word-phrase is found one time in the Bible and once in the Book of Mormon and in both cases is directly associated with an anchor of hope. That is more than an uncanny coincidence, it's undeniable plagiarism on the part of Joseph Smith!

"sure and stedfast" "sure and steadfast"

But wait, there's more! It could be argued that Smith took another unique phrase (found once in the Bible) and arranged it into the Book of Mormon on three occasions in order to prop up his own work with something special. Note how the biblical word "unmoveable" (found twice in the Bible) is changed to immovable in the Book of Mormon and how Mosiah reveals the plagiaristic clincher with "always abounding in good works" or as St. Paul said, "always abounding in the work of the Lord":

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

• And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord! (1 Ne 2:10)
• Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works (Mosiah 5:15)
• Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith; nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God (Alma 1:25)

There is no doubt in my mind that Mosiah 5:15 (124 BC) was stolen from the New Testament and like so much of the Book of Mormon is simply out of place and time. Did you know the phrase "good works" is entirely a New Testament convention and that "always abounding" is found once in the Bible in conjunction with "good works"? Anybody who refuses to see the connection is lying to themselves just as they lie about the claim of a king's name in Facsimile No. 3.

Mormons love to lie in order to preserve their testimonies.