Hi, I’m just a lurker who never signed up for an account.
I’m interested in how we can apply Wittgenstein to Mormonism. It seems that, to understand Mormon religious language, we must examine what Mormons actually do with the language.
Testimony from a good experience at an auto dealership is very different than the same word within a Mormon context.
I’m thinking of other words, too.
Know
True
God
Sacrement
I love Wittgenstein’s idea of the language-game, and I think Mormonism can be understood partly as a distinctive language-game embedded within a distinctive form of life.
Good observation. Particularly clever is the use of “The Before,” which can mean approximately the same thing as “the Afore,” though the meaning is different on this board, of course.
Good observation. Particularly clever is the use of “The Before,” which can mean approximately the same thing as “the Afore,” though the meaning is different on this board, of course.
+1 for thoughtful word play.
I did see a few threads with the Afore, and it did inspire my username. (Usernames are difficult to come up with.)
Some of ELDER PAUL H. DUNN’S stories mention that he:
Was the sole survivor among 11 infantrymen in a 100-yard race against death, during which one burst of machine-gun fire ripped his right boot off, another tore off his ammunition and canteen belt and yet another split his helmet in half—all without wounding him.
Kept a Japanese prisoner from being butchered by GIs bent on revenge for the torture-slayings of American soldiers.
Wrestled a dynamite pack off a child kamikaze infiltrator, saving himself and the child.
Miraculously survived being run over by an enemy tank, while others were crushed.
Was one of only six in his 1,000-man combat group who survived, and was the only one of the six who wasn’t wounded.
My peers and I understood that these stories happened just the way Elder Dunn said they happened; AND that Elder Dunn meant us to understand that these stories happened just the way he said they happened, i.e., these stories were TRUE. And, in our minds, these seeming miraculous incidents gave added weight to his testimony of spiritual matters. Had Elder Dunn prefaced these as a parable -- for example, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like surviving being run over by an enemy tank, while all your buddies are crushed” -- I might think that it falls short as an inspiring parable, but I wouldn’t call it a lie. If Wittgenstein has a different way of understanding this, I’m all ears.
Well. Words are informed by the world we experience. In turn, we shape the world using those words. If we consume propagandized words regularly, then at least our perception of reality takes on a different meaning from those who use those words differently.
The question remains, though. Is reality ‘conformed’ by our language?
I don’t think so. Mormonism is a system within systems which ultimately lead to irrefutable truths of this reality that shape it in of themselves what reality is. I suppose if you or a resurrected Wittengenstein would want to argue that quantum mechanics angle you might find something to hold onto.
Really, for me, Mormonism was a scam that lifted language and rituals from other scams without actually understanding them. As a result meaning was assigned by the ‘equivalent’ of a religious Facebook group making itself crazy due to ignorance, avarice, and delusion.
Hiring a part-time news entertainment anchor as SecDef, what could go wrong?
Mormon apologists love the idea of language games because then they can say, "oh, you thought the church is true? haha, there's no such thing as truth, everything is its own language game so Mormonism is just as valid as physics is."
But I think W does have some punishing things to say about Mormonism. BKP, trying to save his non-existent testimony grounded his self-righteousness in pure subjectivism -- "Do you know what salt tastes like? I do, and if you don't, not my problem." He literally tried to sell the world W warned us about where everyone has their own beetle in a box that nobody but them has access to. It just showed what an uneducated fool he was at the end of the day, along with anyone who respects him the least bit and has anything kind to say about him.
"if you can't admire Joe Biden as a person then it's probably, you got a problem." -- Lindsey Graham
If “know” doesn’t necessarily mean know and “true” doesn’t necessarily mean true, what is being testified to?
In my experience it’s a performance meant to emulate the testimony of others. Young children are led to the stand and their parents whisper the words to say, word by word. “I know the church is twue. I know Joseph Smith is a pwophet.”
Some of ELDER PAUL H. DUNN’S stories mention that he:
Was the sole survivor among 11 infantrymen in a 100-yard race against death, during which one burst of machine-gun fire ripped his right boot off, another tore off his ammunition and canteen belt and yet another split his helmet in half—all without wounding him.
Kept a Japanese prisoner from being butchered by GIs bent on revenge for the torture-slayings of American soldiers.
Wrestled a dynamite pack off a child kamikaze infiltrator, saving himself and the child.
Miraculously survived being run over by an enemy tank, while others were crushed.
Was one of only six in his 1,000-man combat group who survived, and was the only one of the six who wasn’t wounded.
My peers and I understood that these stories happened just the way Elder Dunn said they happened; AND that Elder Dunn meant us to understand that these stories happened just the way he said they happened, i.e., these stories were TRUE. And, in our minds, these seeming miraculous incidents gave added weight to his testimony of spiritual matters. Had Elder Dunn prefaced these as a parable -- for example, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like surviving being run over by an enemy tank, while all your buddies are crushed” -- I might think that it falls short as an inspiring parable, but I wouldn’t call it a lie. If Wittgenstein has a different way of understanding this, I’m all ears.
Yeah, what a liar.
It’s astounding that god cared to save Elder Dunn, but no one else. Aren’t we all his children? And don’t we care about the 90 and 9 who were blasted into oblivion?
Mormon apologists love the idea of language games because then they can say, "oh, you thought the church is true? haha, there's no such thing as truth, everything is its own language game so Mormonism is just as valid as physics is."
But I think W does have some punishing things to say about Mormonism. BKP, trying to save his non-existent testimony grounded his self-righteousness in pure subjectivism -- "Do you know what salt tastes like? I do, and if you don't, not my problem." He literally tried to sell the world W warned us about where everyone has their own beetle in a box that nobody but them has access to. It just showed what an uneducated fool he was at the end of the day, along with anyone who respects him the least bit and has anything kind to say about him.
I agree about apologetics. I’ve never read an apologetics piece that seemed to make sense to me, nor have I seen a religious debate where I felt like I learned something. Are you familiar with Trevor Horn over at Catholic Answers? What a Bozo.
Aren’t you being a little harsh on ‘ole Packer? He is probably my least favorite of them all, but do you think his testimony was somehow not sincere? To me he seemed like a very sincere person. Misguided, uneducated, perhaps, but I never questioned his sincerity.
