Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:17 am
I think that Hume's contemporaries on all sides would have been appalled at confusing real presence with transubstantiation. Transubstantiation was and is the hard-core Catholic form of the broader doctrine of real presence—that Christ is "really present" in the bread and wine of the Eucharist—which was and is shared by Lutherans and Anglicans, who indignantly deny the specifically Catholic version. The Lutheran and Anglican alternatives have some similar practical implications for how Christians are supposed to consider the Sacrament, though less radical than the Catholic conclusion that one should kneel to a piece of bread, but their explanations are vaguer on detail.
Transubstantiation is the mechanic that describes the change happening in the host. After the change has occurred “real presence” is used to describe the host’s new ontology. Lutheran views on “real presence” usually involve saying the host is in a sacramental union with Christ and denying any sort of physical change to the host. Anglicans deny real presence and would say that the presence of Christ is only spiritual.

If Hume is using this incorrectly, then so is the Anglican Archbishop whose book he mentions.
Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:55 pm
Thanks for this post, PG. What I understand of the role of Greek philosophy in Christian theology is too little, but it accords with what you have written here. Looking at discussions of that thought world and how Hume is participating impresses me with how little we generally comprehend of those arguments.
Traditionally Aristotelian categories were used to describe transubstantiation, but today the Roman Catholic Church goes out of its way to not endorse any particular metaphysic. Rene Decartes was nearly excommunicated from the Roman church because Roman theologians saw his substance dualism as a threat to Thomism (the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas) and argued that his books should be banned because substance dualism could not account for the change the host undergoes during the Eucharistic prayer. Poor Descartes had to write a lengthy treatise demonstrating how substance dualism is compatible with transubstantiation and barely escaped censure.
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Sorry for the slight (apparent) derail.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:08 pm
If for nothing else diminishing over time is a good rule to go with since over time, we lose reliability of whether what is claimed was actually witnessed or not. For instance, it seems pretty clear any writer of the New Testament was not witness to any particular miracle that gets described there. There is no witness recording of the events.
I’ve begun to hesitate on this ever since I became aware of Milman Parry and Albert Lord did their famous study on oral culture and modern bards like Avdo Međedović. The passage of time in oral culture doesn’t guarantee corruption of knowledge anymore than it guarantees preservation of it.

The authors of the New Testament may not have been eyewitnesses, but they could be transmitting authentic accounts. Not necessarily all of them, but perhaps some, or even just one of them.
dastardly stem wrote:Not sure I'm following. Tradition and scripture hardly seem to be evidence of the claimed miracles at all.
I take claims to be evidence in and of themselves.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

Post by Physics Guy »

I'm kind of both Anglican and Lutheran, and both churches have consistently taught me the real presence, emphasising those words. Wikipedia backs me up, listing both churches among those who teach the sacramental real presence.

That's how it was in Hume's day as well. Since 1562 the Anglican party line on the Eucharist has been:
Article XXVIII of the Anglican 39 Articles of Region wrote:The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith.
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.
As I tried to explain, the sentence about "only after" a "spiritual manner" is not a contradiction of the real presence. To the people who believe this stuff, spirit is real. Not even Catholic transubstantiation is about a physical change in the host—at least not officially, even in Hume's day. No doubt pious superstition has often imagined otherwise.

According to Wikipedia, John Tillotson actually was Presbyterian before rebadging to Anglicanism and rising in the church. I suspect that at the time the distinction may have been more political than theological. Tillotson did write a treatise against transubstantiation, but I would be surprised if he was really arguing against the wider doctrine of the real presence, since that was the Anglican teaching and Tillotson became ABC. So now I'm seriously wondering whether Hume was actually up to speed on these theological niceties. Or perhaps the precise degree of vagueness in the term "real presence" was not yet settled back then and some people really did use it, in Hume's time, as synonymous with transubstantiation.

Anyway, if Hume's discussion of miracles is really going to begin from the idea that the Eucharist is supposed to be a frequently observed violation of the laws of nature, then he's really starting off on the wrong foot, because apart from misguided pious superstition the Eucharist has never been supposed to be that kind of physical miracle. It has always been a safely unfalsifiable metaphysical miracle.

I'm hoping that for Hume this is just a jumping-off point, which would have been less confusing to his contemporaries because they would all have been familiar enough with Eucharistic controversies to use them safely as analogies for completely different things. I suspect that all he's really doing here is pointing out that hearsay isn't as good evidence—for anything—as direct observation. When the precise meaning of Christian Holy Communion was under contention in Hume's day, all the arguments on any side were based on interpretations of a few verses in the New Testament. I'm thinking that maybe all Hume really took from Tillotson was the realization that, as far as all of us later generations are concerned, Scripture is nothing but hearsay.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

Post by Chap »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:28 am
... apart from misguided pious superstition the Eucharist has never been supposed to be that kind of physical miracle. It has always been a safely unfalsifiable metaphysical miracle.
I think the categories you are using there (physical/metaphysical, falsifiable/unfalsifiable) may turn out to be anachronistic in the context of medieval discussions of what happens to the consecrated elements during the Mass. See for instance the discussion of Thomas Aquinas (c. 1225–1274) in his Summa Theologica, which uses the Aristotelian categories of substance and accidents:

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4075.htm

TL/DR The substance of the bread becomes the substance of Christ's body; but its accidents (colour, texture - all that we perceive directly) remain those of bread.
Article 4. Whether bread can be converted into the body of Christ?

Objection 1. It seems that bread cannot be converted into the body of Christ. For conversion is a kind of change. But in every change there must be some subject, which from being previously in potentiality is now in act. because as is said in Phys. iii: "motion is the act of a thing existing in potentiality." But no subject can be assigned for the substance of the bread and of the body of Christ, because it is of the very nature of substance for it "not to be in a subject," as it is said in Praedic. iii. Therefore it is not possible for the whole substance of the bread to be converted into the body of Christ.

Objection 2. Further, the form of the thing into which another is converted, begins anew to inhere in the matter of the thing converted into it: as when air is changed into fire not already existing, the form of fire begins anew to be in the matter of the air; and in like manner when food is converted into non-pre-existing man, the form of the man begins to be anew in the matter of the food. Therefore, if bread be changed into the body of Christ, the form of Christ's body must necessarily begin to be in the matter of the bread, which is false. Consequently, the bread is not changed into the substance of Christ's body.

Objection 3. Further, when two things are diverse, one never becomes the other, as whiteness never becomes blackness, as is stated in Phys. i. But since two contrary forms are of themselves diverse, as being the principles of formal difference, so two signate matters are of themselves diverse, as being the principles of material distinction. Consequently, it is not possible for this matter of bread to become this matter whereby Christ's body is individuated, and so it is not possible for this substance of bread to be changed into the substance of Christ's body.

On the contrary, Eusebius Emesenus says: "To thee it ought neither to be a novelty nor an impossibility that earthly and mortal things be changed into the substance of Christ."

I answer that, As stated above (Article 2), since Christ's true body is in this sacrament, and since it does not begin to be there by local motion, nor is it contained therein as in a place, as is evident from what was stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2), it must be said then that it begins to be there by conversion of the substance of bread into itself.

Yet this change is not like natural changes, but is entirely supernatural, and effected by God's power alone. Hence Ambrose says [(De Sacram. iv): "See how Christ's word changes nature's laws, as He wills: a man is not wont to be born save of man and woman: see therefore that against the established law and order a man is born of a Virgin": and] [The passage in the brackets is not in the Leonine edition] (De Myster. iv): "It is clear that a Virgin begot beyond the order of nature: and what we make is the body from the Virgin. Why, then, do you look for nature's order in Christ's body, since the Lord Jesus was Himself brought forth of a Virgin beyond nature?" Chrysostom likewise (Hom. xlvii), commenting on John 6:64: "The words which I have spoken to you," namely, of this sacrament, "are spirit and life," says: i.e. "spiritual, having nothing carnal, nor natural consequence; but they are rent from all such necessity which exists upon earth, and from the laws here established."

For it is evident that every agent acts according as it is in act. But every created agent is limited in its act, as being of a determinate genus and species: and consequently the action of every created agent bears upon some determinate act. Now the determination of every thing in actual existence comes from its form. Consequently, no natural or created agent can act except by changing the form in something; and on this account every change made according to nature's laws is a formal change. But God is infinite act, as stated in I:7:1; III:26:2; hence His action extends to the whole nature of being. Therefore He can work not only formal conversion, so that diverse forms succeed each other in the same subject; but also the change of all being, so that, to wit, the whole substance of one thing be changed into the whole substance of another. And this is done by Divine power in this sacrament; for the whole substance of the bread is changed into the whole substance of Christ's body, and the whole substance of the wine into the whole substance of Christ's blood. Hence this is not a formal, but a substantial conversion; nor is it a kind of natural movement: but, with a name of its own, it can be called "transubstantiation."

Reply to Objection 1. This objection holds good in respect of formal change, because it belongs to a form to be in matter or in a subject; but it does not hold good in respect of the change of the entire substance. Hence, since this substantial change implies a certain order of substances, one of which is changed into the other, it is in both substances as in a subject, just as order and number.

Reply to Objection 2. This argument also is true of formal conversion or change, because, as stated above (Reply to Objection 1), a form must be in some matter or subject. But this is not so in a change of the entire substance; for in this case no subject is possible.

Reply to Objection 3. Form cannot be changed into form, nor matter into matter by the power of any finite agent. Such a change, however, can be made by the power of an infinite agent, which has control over all being, because the nature of being is common to both forms and to both matters; and whatever there is of being in the one, the author of being can change into whatever there is of being in the other, withdrawing that whereby it was distinguished from the other.

Article 5. Whether the accidents of the bread and wine remain in this sacrament after the change?

Objection 1. It seems that the accidents of the bread and wine do not remain in this sacrament. For when that which comes first is removed, that which follows is also taken away. But substance is naturally before accident, as is proved in Metaph. vii. Since, then, after consecration, the substance of the bread does not remain in this sacrament, it seems that its accidents cannot remain.

Objection 2. Further, there ought not to be any deception in a sacrament of truth. But we judge of substance by accidents. It seems, then, that human judgment is deceived, if, while the accidents remain, the substance of the bread does not. Consequently this is unbecoming to this sacrament.

Objection 3. Further, although our faith is not subject to reason, still it is not contrary to reason, but above it, as was said in the beginning of this work (I:1:6, ad 2; Article 8). But our reason has its origin in the senses. Therefore our faith ought not to be contrary to the senses, as it is when sense judges that to be bread which faith believes to be the substance of Christ's body. Therefore it is not befitting this sacrament for the accidents of bread to remain subject to the senses, and for the substance of bread not to remain.

Objection 4. Further, what remains after the change has taken place seems to be the subject of change. If therefore the accidents of the bread remain after the change has been effected, it seems that the accidents are the subject of the change. But this is impossible; for "an accident cannot have an accident" (Metaph. iii). Therefore the accidents of the bread and wine ought not to remain in this sacrament.

On the contrary, Augustine says in his book on the Sentences of Prosper (Lanfranc, De Corp. et Sang. Dom. xiii): "Under the species which we behold, of bread and wine, we honor invisible things, i.e. flesh and blood."

I answer that, It is evident to sense that all the accidents of the bread and wine remain after the consecration. And this is reasonably done by Divine providence. First of all, because it is not customary, but horrible, for men to eat human flesh, and to drink blood. And therefore Christ's flesh and blood are set before us to be partaken of under the species of those things which are the more commonly used by men, namely, bread and wine. Secondly, lest this sacrament might be derided by unbelievers, if we were to eat our Lord under His own species. Thirdly, that while we receive our Lord's body and blood invisibly, this may redound to the merit of faith.

Reply to Objection 1. As is said in the book De Causis, an effect depends more on the first cause than on the second. And therefore by God's power, which is the first cause of all things, it is possible for that which follows to remain, while that which is first is taken away.

Reply to Objection 2. There is no deception in this sacrament; for the accidents which are discerned by the senses are truly present. But the intellect, whose proper object is substance as is said in De Anima iii, is preserved by faith from deception. And this serves as answer to the third argument; because faith is not contrary to the senses, but concerns things to which sense does not reach.

Reply to Objection 4. This change has not properly a subject, as was stated above (Article 4, Reply to Objection 1); nevertheless the accidents which remain have some resemblance of a subject.

Article 6. Whether the substantial form of the bread remains in this sacrament after the consecration?

Objection 1. It seems that the substantial form of the bread remains in this sacrament after the consecration. For it has been said (Article 5) that the accidents remain after the consecration. But since bread is an artificial thing, its form is an accident. Therefore it remains after the consecration.

Objection 2. Further, the form of Christ's body is His soul: for it is said in De Anima ii, that the soul "is the act of a physical body which has life in potentiality". But it cannot be said that the substantial form of the bread is changed into the soul. Therefore it appears that it remains after the consecration.

Objection 3. Further, the proper operation of a things follows its substantial form. But what remains in this sacrament, nourishes, and performs every operation which bread would do were it present. Therefore the substantial form of the bread remains in this sacrament after the consecration.

On the contrary, The substantial form of bread is of the substance of bread. But the substance of the bread is changed into the body of Christ, as stated above (Article 2,Article 3,Article 4). Therefore the substantial form of the bread does not remain.

I answer that, Some have contended that after the consecration not only do the accidents of the bread remain, but also its substantial form. But this cannot be. First of all, because if the substantial form of the bread were to remain, nothing of the bread would be changed into the body of Christ, excepting the matter; and so it would follow that it would be changed, not into the whole body of Christ, but into its matter, which is repugnant to the form of the sacrament, wherein it is said: "This is My body."

Secondly, because if the substantial form of the bread were to remain, it would remain either in matter, or separated from matter. The first cannot be, for if it were to remain in the matter of the bread, then the whole substance of the bread would remain, which is against what was said above (Article 2). Nor could it remain in any other matter, because the proper form exists only in its proper matter. But if it were to remain separate from matter, it would then be an actually intelligible form, and also an intelligence; for all forms separated from matter are such.

Thirdly, it would be unbefitting this sacrament: because the accidents of the bread remain in this sacrament, in order that the body of Christ may be seen under them, and not under its proper species, as stated above (Article 5).

And therefore it must be said that the substantial form of the bread does not remain.

Reply to Objection 1. There is nothing to prevent art from making a thing whose form is not an accident, but a substantial form; as frogs and serpents can be produced by art: for art produces such forms not by its own power, but by the power of natural energies. And in this way it produces the substantial forms of bread, by the power of fire baking the matter made up of flour and water.

Reply to Objection 2. The soul is the form of the body, giving it the whole order of perfect being, i.e. being, corporeal being, and animated being, and so on. Therefore the form of the bread is changed into the form of Christ's body, according as the latter gives corporeal being, but not according as it bestows animated being.

Reply to Objection 3. Some of the operations of bread follow it by reason of the accidents, such as to affect the senses, and such operations are found in the species of the bread after the consecration on account of the accidents which remain. But some other operations follow the bread either by reason of the matter, such as that it is changed into something else, or else by reason of the substantial form, such as an operation consequent upon its species, for instance, that it "strengthens man's heart" (Psalm 103:15); and such operations are found in this sacrament, not on account of the form or matter remaining, but because they are bestowed miraculously upon the accidents themselves, as will be said later (III:77:3, ad 2,3; Articles 5 and 6).
I don't think we can reasonably call Aquinas's discussion 'pious superstition', can we?
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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Maybe I am just being dense, but I find the discussion of “substance” and “accidents” along these lines difficult to correlate to the terms in which we usually conduct materialist arguments. What PG wrote made perfect sense to me, and I don’t see, Chap, how what you are saying is a correction. I accept it is probably my failure to comprehend. Substantial transformation does seem metaphysical and unfalsifiable to my limited understanding. Accidents appear to be all of the properties of matter as we experience them on a physical level. If those accidents aren’t expected to change, then how would the transformation be falsifiable?
Last edited by Kishkumen on Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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Indeed Aquinas's discussion is not just superstition, but I don't think he's contradicting anything I said. When he says "substance" he does not mean material composition. He speaks, for example, of "substantial form", and distinguishes it from "matter" and from "species".

When Aquinas said "invisible" I'm pretty sure he didn't just mean "invisible to the naked eye but perfectly physical on molecular scales". That would be anachronistic. I'm pretty sure that to Aquinas "invisible" meant "undetectable by any physical means". I think the anachronism is in presuming that his long discussion of substantial change has to have been about something that we today might discuss at such length, namely microscopic physical structure. What Aquinas was discussing at such length in all those paragraphs was not his medievally mistaken conclusions about our modern issue of physical composition, but rather completely different issues that have long since lost interest for us.

I'm pretty sure he would consider us all to be disgracefully uneducated, not knowing anything about all those things that were important to him.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:00 am
Maybe I am just being dense, but I find the discussion of “substance” and “accidents” along these lines difficult to correlate to the terms in which we usually conduct materialist arguments.
That was precisely my point. If you want to understand how people thought, you have to be prepared to enter into the ways of thinking they used, without insisting on using our present day habits of thought to translate what they say into a modern description of 'what they really meant'. How 'we usually conduct materialist arguments' should not be treated as a privileged mode of discourse, I suggest.

I was specifically reacting to this statement by PhysicsGuy, by the way:
Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:28 am
apart from misguided pious superstition the Eucharist has never been supposed to be that kind of physical miracle. It has always been a safely unfalsifiable metaphysical miracle.
by the way you are not dense.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

Post by DrStakhanovite »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:28 am
I'm kind of both Anglican and Lutheran, and both churches have consistently taught me the real presence, emphasising those words. Wikipedia backs me up, listing both churches among those who teach the sacramental real presence.
Thank you! After reading and rereading your comments and then going back over mine, you made me realize I wasn’t being careful enough in my descriptions which resulted in me blundering into error. I think this calls for a substantial rewrite on my part concerning this topic and how it relates to Hume’s broader thesis.

Thanks for the assist on that.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

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Chap wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:09 pm
That was precisely my point. If you want to understand how people thought, you have to be prepared to enter into the ways of thinking they used, without insisting on using our present day habits of thought to translate what they say into a modern description of 'what they really meant'. How 'we usually conduct materialist arguments' should not be treated as a privileged mode of discourse, I suggest.
Ah, OK. Thanks for helping me out. Christian theology is not a language I am familiar with. It was not until very recently that I started to look into it a little more seriously, which should be understood in very relative terms. My background in Classics has really helped, at least to a certain extent, but I still have a difficult time wrapping my head around a lot of it.
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Re: Cassius Circle: David Hume’s ‘Of Miracles’

Post by DrStakhanovite »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:00 am
Maybe I am just being dense, but I find the discussion of “substance” and “accidents” along these lines difficult to correlate to the terms in which we usually conduct materialist arguments. What PG wrote made perfect sense to me, and I don’t see, Chap, how what you are saying is a correction. I accept it is probably my failure to comprehend. Substantial transformation does seem metaphysical and unfalsifiable to my limited understanding. Accidents appear to be all of the properties of matter as we experience them on a physical level. If those accidents aren’t expected to change, then how would the transformation be falsifiable?
What is going to make this even weirder is that Hume didn't think there nothing to "substance" beyond it being a collection of properties/attributes something has. The more traditional accounts see substance as being distinct and mutually exclusive to properties/attributes.
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