Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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azflyer
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by azflyer »

DrW wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:53 pm
Here is the image of a perfectly airworthy (both engines operating) Navajo Chieftain from upthread after a "successful" (no injuries) landing in a farm field. The crew decided not to take a chance on flipping the aircraft and opted for a gear-up belly landing. The aircraft was a total loss.
Hey, as the saying goes...
Any landing you can walk away from...
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Dr Moore
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

Here is a color photo taken July 17, 1976 by I. E. Quastler, a "historical transportation geographer" (who knew such a role exists?) and emeritus professor of geography at San Diego State. This photo, taken at Skywest's St. George HQ, is the very plane that flew on Nov. 11, 1976, tail number N74985, according to the C.A.B. report.

The engine you see, the right engine, is the very engine that would fail months later, on Nov. 11, 1976. Nelson was on the opposite, or left hand side of the plane, and the "hysterical" woman Nelson describes ("The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest.") would have been sitting in one of the right-side window seats visible in the photo.

Credit: I found the link to this photo upthread, linked by Doc Cam, but the Flickr link forces a download instead of viewing online. So likely not many have seen it. Here's the photo uploaded afresh.

Image

What intrigues me about this photo is the location of the propeller and engine relative to the passenger windows. It's so far up. The prop is ahead of the pilot's cabin, and the engine housings are literally situated right next to the pilot.

From where Nelson would have been sitting, he could not have seen very much of the failed engine scene. His view was obstructed across the aisle and "through" the cockpit seats, and the side-opening window curtains. This lack of a view really strains the notion of a "vivid" memory of an engine that "exploded" and "burst open" and poured "flaming oil" all over the right side.

And let's be real here, Nelson didn't get a good look at the action. He'd have had to lean over the aisle for a better look, right? First, okay, how very rude to pull such a move with that hysterical woman he felt so sorry for. Can you picture that? "Excuse me ma'am, I know you're freaking out a little, but I need a better look." Uh, no. Second, he was totally calm, remember? Calm people don't go bobbing all over the cabin for a better look. Third, he already knew he was going to die, remember? He was busy seeing his life flash before his eyes while reflecting on the afterlife.

But you know who did have a perfect view of both props and both engines, mere inches away from both? The pilot, that's who.

Anyhow, let's look at the supporting perspective of this photo. If some oil leaked out of the crank case, then some of that oil could easily have been blown above the wing (because the engine housing sits mostly atop the wing) and right back onto the right side windows. I mean, the engine is right there, about as close to the body as the propeller radius would allow. And if there was any smoke, any smoke at all, then Nelson might have just assumed in his mind that "where there is smoke, there must be fire." Right? It's totally possible that he saw some oil splatter, a bit of smoke, and just logically assumed (a) fire (smoke) and (b) open engine (oil). I bet that with the passage of a few years, he convinced himself that he actually saw the engine burst open and the fiery oil spew.

Meanwhile, as you can plainly see, the pilot will have had a clean view of both propellers and both engines throughout. Pilot would not have been uncertain at any moment about what was (and wasn't) happening with the engines. Nelson's "vivid" memory cannot have been all that vivid, certainly far less so than the pilot who reported no fire, no damage, no debris, and had the training to fly some 20+ miles back to Delta airport for a precautionary landing per the manual.

Lastly, I'm wondering out loud about the engine housing. Look at the design. That housing built right onto the wing, again about as close to the plane body as allowable by the propeller's radius. So if, hypothetically, the engine "exploded" or "burst open" because of a fiery explosion, then what Nelson means us to hear is that the engine housing blew apart. Right? But that means the paneling over the engine you see there, which is quite a large panel, would have blown completely off. How else could the engine, which he could hardly see to begin with, leave a memory of "bursting open" or "exploding"? But this explosion and the flying debris would likely have damaged the main and/or rear wings, or the plane body or both. Fire plus debris, nothing at all like the CAB report says. If a huge piece of paneling were missing, as per Nelson, then how would an FAA investigation find that the pilot could have just as well flown on to SGU, or returned to SLC? That doesn’t sound like an exploded engine panel situation at all.

ETA: here's another photo of the Piper Navajo. See how big that panel is around the engines? How does that "blow open" without smashing right into the wing and leaving a massive piece of debris, and how does an explosion sufficient to cause that go totally unreported?
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by dastardly stem »

Those big windows help his case to some extent. He could see quite easily out those windows, I'd imagine, even from the other side. Where there's smoke there's fire? yeah. Could be. A just above mild descent turns into a spiral nose dive? I guess its possible. I mean, what did he know? Yeah, landing in a field, knowing he was going to die, diving then at the last second turning on the second engine? All exaggerations, it sounds like. All conceivably explainable? I guess so.

But still, in 102 pages I don't understand why anyone cares that much? The story has exaggerations, at the very least. But it seems the biggest problem of the story remains. He tells a story to express how he's the most faithful? I still don't understand why being calm or crying out for fear of death explains any degree of nobility. Maybe he'd be much better off if he had a healthier fear of death? Sounds like the pilot handled the situation well and worked for the safety of all the passengers. The guy or gal deserves some credit here. Yet, Nelson tells the story to tell everyone he was so faithful that he didn't cry or pee himself?

I mean the story is not worth telling but once (certainly not publishable) and without the exaggeration and moral lesson (which was garbage). That it's wholly self-serving speaks to the cringe-worthiness of what get's Mormons going--prophet worship. Hate it. I don't care if he lied. He's a prick for telling everyone a lady squealed and he was hero without mentioning the pilot.

Lying is one stupid thing we all do from time to time. Telling exaggerated stories to build ourselves up happens too, even though it shouldn't. I mean we're just getting worse here. Being the prick who can't help but tell everyone he's most righteous and fawning audiences should adore him for it? I mean, Jesus. Please.

I know I've said the above a few times. But, whatever. The thread's still active, everyone else is repeating themselves....why not?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Lem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:09 am
Speaking of death spiral tropes, my wife and I are watching Star Trek Insurrection because it’s better than ESPN the Ocho. In the first act, Picard and Warf secure a shuttlecraft to Data’s runner causing Data to react poorly, and he ends up throwing both of them into a Death Spiral! And better yet, they manage to ‘restart the engines’ and pull out of it at the very last moment!

The only thing missing was Dr. Beverly Crusher screaming hysterically and JLP looking out the window calmly, secure in his knowledge that Q is real.

- Doc
It was Data’s doppleganger screaming “we’re dying!” He was using contractions, that’s how they knew the real Data was with Picard. Q plucked the doppelgänger off the craft just before Data’s roadrunner-coyote thrust move slingshotted them around the moon leaving them in 1969, where they found invisible aluminum but no whale songs because Kirk and Spock had just left with the last two big Blues.

I might be misremembering, though.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:58 pm
I mean the story is not worth telling but once (certainly not publishable) and without the exaggeration and moral lesson (which was garbage). That it's wholly self-serving speaks to the cringe-worthiness of what get's Mormons going--prophet worship. Hate it. I don't care if he lied. He's a prick for telling everyone a lady squealed and he was hero without mentioning the pilot.

Lying is one stupid thing we all do from time to time. Telling exaggerated stories to build ourselves up happens too, even though it shouldn't. I mean we're just getting worse here. Being the prick who can't help but tell everyone he's most righteous and fawning audiences should adore him for it? I mean, Jesus. Please.
Your feelings on this matter are certainly clear enough. You would likely not enjoy reading through all of Nelson's older conference talks...
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gadianton »

Lem wrote:just before Data’s roadrunner-coyote thrust move slingshotted them around the moon
kind of like that one time when Rusty slingshotted from the raft and into the rapids, while his young family was aboard the raft, on the most dangerous river run in the Unites States?
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Lem »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:57 pm
Lem wrote:just before Data’s roadrunner-coyote thrust move slingshotted them around the moon
kind of like that one time when Rusty slingshotted from the raft and into the rapids, while his young family was aboard the raft, on the most dangerous river run in the Unites States?
With his 7 year old aboard who he told to hang on to him and not the ropes? You know, I think it was!!
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by dastardly stem »

Lol. Nelson's given us more than we expected at least. Or more than I did. I always saw him as one of the more boring dudes who didn't have much to say. While all the Mormons gathered around me were praising the likes of Holland, Monson, Oaks or Scott old Neslon just kept on quietly trudging forward.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Exiled »

Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:18 am
And let's be real here, Nelson didn't get a good look at the action. He'd have had to lean over the aisle for a better look, right? First, okay, how very rude to pull such a move with that hysterical woman he felt so sorry for. Can you picture that? "Excuse me ma'am, I know you're freaking out a little, but I need a better look." Uh, no. Second, he was totally calm, remember? Calm people don't go bobbing all over the cabin for a better look. Third, he already knew he was going to die, remember? He was busy seeing his life flash before his eyes while reflecting on the afterlife.
Maybe Nelson accidentally groped the poor woman during the ruckus/doors of death incident while he was trying to get a glimpse of the damage? He remembers it as fear from the impending doom when it was really a reaction to his improper touching?

A Frank Costanza move? I think our crack investigators need to explore this angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQmtOkO6ajc
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by honorentheos »

Lem wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:49 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:09 am
Speaking of death spiral tropes, my wife and I are watching Star Trek Insurrection because it’s better than ESPN the Ocho. In the first act, Picard and Warf secure a shuttlecraft to Data’s runner causing Data to react poorly, and he ends up throwing both of them into a Death Spiral! And better yet, they manage to ‘restart the engines’ and pull out of it at the very last moment!

The only thing missing was Dr. Beverly Crusher screaming hysterically and JLP looking out the window calmly, secure in his knowledge that Q is real.

- Doc
It was Data’s doppleganger screaming “we’re dying!” He was using contractions, that’s how they knew the real Data was with Picard. Q plucked the doppelgänger off the craft just before Data’s roadrunner-coyote thrust move slingshotted them around the moon leaving them in 1969, where they found invisible aluminum but no whale songs because Kirk and Spock had just left with the last two big Blues.

I might be misremembering, though.
Too much LDS.
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