Gun Violence

[Atlanticmike]

Arming teachers in schools? No. Make that a hell no.

Thank you for ignoring me!! You know you can't ignore me! You love me too much.

[Atlanticmike]

Just as a matter of interest...or not...during incidents of active shooter, teachers already have a list of procedures to facilitate (depending on which scenario applies and as the incident develops) in order to keep students safe when they shelter in place in the classroom (or other building location) and that includes class evacuation when appropriate--accounting for the safety of all students and staff in their classrooms, and communication procedures.

This point is important. It’s not preferred that the teacher leave students to fend for themselves while the teacher is tasked with engaging the shooter.

To be fair, I understand the idea behind letting teachers carry in class for purely defensive reasons in the case of a shooter scenario, but even that becomes problematic from a distraction/weapon security standpoint, or the temptation to target that teacher first (as RI pointed out earlier).

Canpakes. Tell me what you think about these three different scenarios. I'm going to assume you're probably going to be ok with the first and second, but from what you've said so far about armed teachers, tell me why it's not a good idea to have a few armed teachers in a school.
1. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a baseball bat, hits the security guard over the head knocks him out. He walks into the cafeteria where a hundred and fifty students the ages 6,7, and 8 are eating lunch. He begins to hit as many students as possible. A brave teacher approaches the deranged man and gets severely injured. The principal Sees what's happening and runs to the PE closet and retrieves a aluminum baseball bat and confronts the deranged man, knocking him out. Was it ok for the principal to attack the deranged man with a bat?

2. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a knife, stabs the security guard multiple times taking the guard out of the fight. He walks into the cafeteria where a hundred and fifty students the ages 6,7 and 8 are eating lunch. He begins to stab as many students as possible. A brave teacher approaches the man but gets severely injured. The principal sees what's happening and runs to the cafeteria grabs a large knife and stabs the deranged man to death. Was it okay for the principal to attack the deranged man with a knife?

3. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a gun, shoots the security guard multiple times taking him out of the fight. he walks into the cafeteria where a hundred and fifty students the ages 6,7 and 8 are eating lunch. He begins to shoot as many students as possible. A brave teacher runs towards the deranged man but gets shot and falls to the ground. The principal sees what's happening and goes to the PE closet, grabs an aluminum baseball bat, runs into the cafeteria and gets shot attacking the deranged man. Another teacher goes to the cafeteria and grabs a knife but is also shot when attempting to confront the deranged man. The deranged man keeps shooting students at will. My question to you is. In this scenario, would it be better to have multiple armed teachers trained on how to use a gun in the cafeteria to confront the deranged man?

Remember now! When giving me your answer, keep in mind that a 911 call has been made and multiple officers are in their squad cars racing toward the school and the first thing they're going to do after exiting their squad car is pull their duty weapon before entering the school.

[canpakes]

To be fair, I understand the idea behind letting teachers carry in class for purely defensive reasons in the case of a shooter scenario, but even that becomes problematic from a distraction/weapon security standpoint, or the temptation to target that teacher first (as RI pointed out earlier).

Canpakes. Tell me what you think about these three different scenarios.

1. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a baseball bat …

2. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a knife …

3. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a gun …

Look back at that part of my earlier response that I’ve included again above. I completely understand the desire to carry for personal protection. What I’m not sold on is the idea that teachers then are either tasked or encouraged to actively engage a shooter outside of a purely defensive stance. If anything, the teacher is responsible for their students … and while protecting them could involve returning fire, it also requires that the teacher is not leaving students behind on their own in order to pursue the shooter, and not lobbing bullets in the general direction of other students if the shooter is in the mix. ‘Know your backstop’, right?

Consider, too, that a teacher who did so might not be aware of multiple threats from more than one student. Remember Columbine. How will a teacher know how many shooters exist on campus? If the teacher leaves their students to engage one reported to be in the cafeteria, will s/he know about the other just around the corner and headed towards that classroom?

The three examples above also have one important consideration. The first two are close-in threats. You need to be in physical touch range to be harming anyone with a knife or a bat. Someone with either weapon can be much more safely engaged by anyone - even students - if that’s the threat, without the same sort of collateral damage possible with gunfire. The situation is vastly different with a shooter situation - both for the advantage afforded the student carrying a firearm and spare magazines with several hundred rounds, and the disadvantage to the teacher who is already charged with protecting and leading his students away from danger.

Now, don’t come back with, “… but what if the attacker was an expert knife thrower and carrying 400 knives …?”

[Atlanticmike]

Canpakes. Tell me what you think about these three different scenarios.

1. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a baseball bat …

2. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a knife …

3. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a gun …

Look back at that part of my earlier response that I’ve included again above. I completely understand the desire to carry for personal protection. What I’m not sold on is the idea that teachers then are either tasked or encouraged to actively engage a shooter outside of a purely defensive stance. If anything, the teacher is responsible for their students … and while protecting them could involve returning fire, it also requires that the teacher is not leaving students behind on their own in order to pursue the shooter, and not lobbing bullets in the general direction of other students if the shooter is in the mix. ‘Know your backstop’, right?

Consider, too, that a teacher who did so might not be aware of multiple threats from more than one student. Remember Columbine. How will a teacher know how many shooters exist on campus? If the teacher leaves their students to engage one reported to be in the cafeteria, will s/he know about the other just around the corner and headed towards that classroom?

The three examples above also have one important consideration. The first two are close-in threats. You need to be in physical touch range to be harming anyone with a knife or a bat. Someone with either weapon can be much more safely engaged by anyone - even students - if that’s the threat, without the same sort of collateral damage possible with gunfire. The situation is vastly different with a shooter situation - both for the advantage afforded the student carrying a firearm and spare magazines with several hundred rounds, and the disadvantage to the teacher who is already charged with protecting and leading his students away from danger.

Now, don’t come back with, “… but what if the attacker was an expert knife thrower and carrying 400 knives …?”

Here's were I think we differ the most canpakes. When I say arm some teachers you guys seem to think that's a bad idea for some reason. To me, saying a teacher couldn't or shouldn't handle the responsibility of protecting his/her students is an insult. Almost as if a trained LEO/ teacher is to ignorant to be able to take down a deranged gunman. Many many Americans have more than one job. Some people manage to be trained for two or three completely different jobs and fulfill their duties without a problem, an armed LEO/TEACHER would be no different. Here's a couple more scenarios to help you see where I am coming from, tell me what you think please.

1. A family of three, mom, dad and five year old girl. Both parents are teachers with a combined income of $110,000. Since they make good money and have benefits the mom decides to give back to the community and decides to become a volunteer firefighter/Paramedic. She's required to work two 12 hour shifts a month, one on the engine and one on the medic. If she is fully trained like a full time firefighter/EMT, are you ok with her volunteering?

2. Same family. This time the school teacher mom decides to become a reserve/volunteer sheriff's deputy. She goes through the academy and she is a fully accredited officer. She's required to work two 8 hour shifts a month. One on the street as a traffic officer and one shift in the courts protecting the judge and the courtroom. She wears the exact same uniform, gunbelt, and carries all the same weaponry as a full time deputy. Are you ok with her volunteering as a reserve deputy?

3. Same family. Same school teacher mom who is a fully accredited sheriff's deputy. Same woman who works a 8 hour shift writing traffic tickets and responding to calls. Same woman who works an 8 hour shift in the courts and protects the people in the courts. Question! Should this fully accredited officer be able to wear her badge and duty weapon to the school where she works a full time job as a TEACHER? If not, could you tell me why?

Canpakes. Here's a video about reserve officers. It's 8 minutes, if you don't want to watch all of it at least watch the first three minutes.
https://youtu.be/gZSZNnB7qC8

[Lem]

Canpakes. Tell me what you think about these three different scenarios.

1. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a baseball bat …

2. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a knife …

3. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in with a gun …

Look back at that part of my earlier response that I’ve included again above. I completely understand the desire to carry for personal protection. What I’m not sold on is the idea that teachers then are either tasked or encouraged to actively engage a shooter outside of a purely defensive stance. If anything, the teacher is responsible for their students … and while protecting them could involve returning fire, it also requires that the teacher is not leaving students behind on their own in order to pursue the shooter, and not lobbing bullets in the general direction of other students if the shooter is in the mix. ‘Know your backstop’, right?

Consider, too, that a teacher who did so might not be aware of multiple threats from more than one student. Remember Columbine. How will a teacher know how many shooters exist on campus? If the teacher leaves their students to engage one reported to be in the cafeteria, will s/he know about the other just around the corner and headed towards that classroom?

The three examples above also have one important consideration. The first two are close-in threats. You need to be in physical touch range to be harming anyone with a knife or a bat. Someone with either weapon can be much more safely engaged by anyone - even students - if that’s the threat, without the same sort of collateral damage possible with gunfire. The situation is vastly different with a shooter situation - both for the advantage afforded the student carrying a firearm and spare magazines with several hundred rounds, and the disadvantage to the teacher who is already charged with protecting and leading his students away from danger.

Now, don’t come back with, “… but what if the attacker was an expert knife thrower and carrying 400 knives …?”

Another large part being ignored is this:

1. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in …

2. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in …

3. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in …

Occasionally I sub at the various Catholic schools my kids went to. I’m also aware of the policy of the public schools in my district and state, and have sat in on multiple police presentations re: best practices at these schools. There is so much in place, as a first defense, to stop “a deranged man” who simply “walks in.”

The starts of these scenarios don’t reflect the layers of protection that have been put in place in virtually every school in the country. Going straight to the supposed need for guns is unrealistic.

[Jersey Girl]

Deranged man who walks in? Building security. You stop him at the door. This isn't rocket science.

[Lem]

Deranged man who walks in? Building security. You stop him at the door. This isn't rocket science.

My point, but so much more succinctly.

[Atlanticmike]

Deranged man who walks in? Building security. You stop him at the door. This isn't rocket science.

You sure are doing a terrible job ignoring me c'mon, admit it, you love me!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Deranged man who walks in? Building security. You stop him at the door. This isn't rocket science.

My point, but so much more succinctly.

BUT, BUT, WAITWAITWAIT, what if it’s ISIS and there are THREE of them, and they were trained by the French Foreign Legion in the 90’s, and they’re armed with AR-15’s and they’re also PEDOPHILES???

Weird how wrapped around the axle they get with the statistically small odds of a kid getting shot in school, but vaccines? “F” IT. YOU’RE ON YOUR OWN, LIBSHIT.

Also weird how they’re all of a sudden ok with arming the government even further to keep us safe in the public indoctrination centers that churn out democrats.

- Doc

[Atlanticmike]

Look back at that part of my earlier response that I’ve included again above. I completely understand the desire to carry for personal protection. What I’m not sold on is the idea that teachers then are either tasked or encouraged to actively engage a shooter outside of a purely defensive stance. If anything, the teacher is responsible for their students … and while protecting them could involve returning fire, it also requires that the teacher is not leaving students behind on their own in order to pursue the shooter, and not lobbing bullets in the general direction of other students if the shooter is in the mix. ‘Know your backstop’, right?

Consider, too, that a teacher who did so might not be aware of multiple threats from more than one student. Remember Columbine. How will a teacher know how many shooters exist on campus? If the teacher leaves their students to engage one reported to be in the cafeteria, will s/he know about the other just around the corner and headed towards that classroom?

The three examples above also have one important consideration. The first two are close-in threats. You need to be in physical touch range to be harming anyone with a knife or a bat. Someone with either weapon can be much more safely engaged by anyone - even students - if that’s the threat, without the same sort of collateral damage possible with gunfire. The situation is vastly different with a shooter situation - both for the advantage afforded the student carrying a firearm and spare magazines with several hundred rounds, and the disadvantage to the teacher who is already charged with protecting and leading his students away from danger.

Now, don’t come back with, “… but what if the attacker was an expert knife thrower and carrying 400 knives …?”

Another large part being ignored is this:

1. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in …

2. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in …

3. At an elementary school, a deranged man walks in …

Occasionally I sub at the various Catholic schools my kids went to. I’m also aware of the policy of the public schools in my district and state, and have sat in on multiple police presentations re: best practices at these schools. There is so much in place, as a first defense, to stop “a deranged man” who simply “walks in.”

The starts of these scenarios don’t reflect the layers of protection that have been put in place in virtually every school in the country. Going straight to the supposed need for guns is unrealistic.

I was in a high school two years ago to pick my daughter up because she was sick. I opened the front door, went to a desk 30 feet away, handed over my license and got a visitor sticker. I was escorted to the nurses office by a 70 year old 5'1" 130lbs grandmother. I admit though, she looked kinda tough if I squinted reeeeeaaally hard.