Holland's second "scolding" at BYU

[Moksha]

I agree with Holland that the Church should be prepared to lose all the members of good conscience over the hatreds of the Brethren. Let the Brethren adhere to Klan principles and let the young walk in the 21st Century where past hatreds have been resolved.

BYU will get along just fine without Professional and Intercollegiate Associations dictating proper attitudes and behavior. That will show the world what the Church is really about. So there!

[The Stig]

Do you guys feel embarrassed to tell people your degree is from BYU?

I have one of my degrees from BYU and yes, I do feel embarrassed sometimes...especially today.

[Gadianton]

Hear you on this. But I think if pressed, both would hold the line and disagree, arguing that the talks were compatible, key points being (a) love and compassion necessary, and (b) obedience to God’s law as revealed by living prophets is also necessary.

That doesn't exactly amount to musket fire. As it stands, Sic et Non will not take up the musket for the cause.

In the past there's been lots of cheap talk at SeN about the New MI not going on the offense for the Proclamation of the Family.

Now they nod to Holland, and deflect, putting their energy into accusing Dave6 and DFP of trying to stir trouble. A good start would be to re-affirm the traditional Mormon interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[IHAQ]

I said then and I say now that if we are an extension of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, taking a significant amount of sacred tithes and other precious human resources, all of which might well be expended in other worthy causes, surely our integrity demands that our lives be absolutely consistent with and characteristic of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. At a university there will always be healthy debate regarding a whole syllabus full of issues. But until “we all come [to] the unity of the faith, and . . . [have grown to] the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,”[7] our next best achievement will be to stay in harmony with the Lord’s anointed, those whom He has designated to declare Church doctrine and to guide Brigham Young University as its trustees.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... conference

Holland appears to be threatening BYU with reduced funding if they don't wield those trowels and muskets in the way he is ordering. And he points out that Nelson did a similar thing back in 2014.

In 2014, seven years ago, then-Elder Russell M. Nelson came to campus in this same setting. His remarks were relatively brief, but tellingly he said:
“With the Church growing more rapidly in the less prosperous countries, we . . . must conserve sacred funds more carefully than ever before.
“At BYU we must ally ourselves even more closely with the work of our Heavenly Father. . . .
“A college education for our people is a sacred responsibility, [but] it is not essential for eternal life.”

And for those who claim the Brethren don't micro manage BYU...

President Nelson chairs our Board, holds our purse strings, and has the final “yea” or “nay” on every proposal we make from a new research lab, to more undergrad study space, to approving a new pickup for the physical facilities staff!

[Dr Moore]

Holland appears to be threatening BYU with reduced funding if they don't wield those trowels and muskets in the way he is ordering. And he points out that Nelson did a similar thing back in 2014.

Yes indeed. Just before mentioning Nelson, he goes after outspoken faculty who evidently care too much about LGBTQ+ students. Holland reads this letter from a parent.

“Please don’t think I’m opposed to people thinking differently about policies and ideas,” the writer continues. “I’m not. But I would hope that BYU professors would be bridging those gaps between faith and intellect and would be sending out students that are ready to do the same in loving, intelligent and articulate ways. Yet, I fear that some faculty are not supportive of the Church's doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly. There are consequences to this. After having served a full-time mission and marrying her husband in the temple, a friend of mine recently left the church. In her graduation statement on a social media post, she credited [such and such a BYU program and its faculty] with the radicalizing of her attitudes and the destruction of her faith.”[6]

(Clip starts here)

Notice the underlined word are, which appears as in print. Holland is pissed that any student might lose their faith as a result of what they hear in BYU classrooms -- specifically "criticisms." The threat to faculty is hardly veiled. Stop all activism and advocacy, because it comes off as criticism. Support the brethren, or find a new job.

I said then and I say now that if we are an extension of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, taking a significant amount of sacred tithes and other precious human resources, all of which might well be expended in other worthy causes, surely our integrity demands that our lives be absolutely consistent with and characteristic of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. At a university there will always be healthy debate regarding a whole syllabus full of issues. But until “we all come [to] the unity of the faith, and . . . [have grown to] the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,”[7] our next best achievement will be to stay in harmony with the Lord’s anointed, those whom He has designated to declare Church doctrine and to guide Brigham Young University as its trustees.

(emphasis mine)

In other words, since everyone at BYU can't believe the same thing, they're expected to just follow the brethren. Period.

And just after that Holland goes into his demand for more "musket fire" in defending the faith and specifically not aiming muskets at the brethren. "A house divided cannot stand."

Well, if the students and faculty are being silenced, then who is left to stand and advocate for LGBTQ+? I guess it leaves only the voices of alumni?

[Moksha]

In many ways, apologetics epitomizes a trowel and musket. Just one more piece of evidence that Elder Holland prefers the troweling and blasting of the Interpreter over those scholars at the Maxwell Institute. Pulling the prized Howitzer off the field in the heat of battle back in 2012, just for shelling an out-of-bound target, was the work of misguided peaceniks who let the enemy gain a significant toehold in the 2nd Cumorah Campaign.

[dastardly stem]

Let's see:

Decades back motivated by the traditional reading of Christian scripture and the traditional view of evangelicalism (which tends to often lead the Church), the Church took up the issue of opposing homosexuality, which was emerging as an issue in the 60s.

The Church decided to implement untested treatments on people who were gay, to get them to change. It did far more damage than could be imagined.

Then, "let's put the legal mind of Oaks on it".

"Man and woman should be the only marriage. One man and one woman. If we think about it in another way, we will ruin family."

A movement starts in Hawaii to consider whether to allow same sex marriage. The Church pours money and resources into it. Luckily the fear of destroying the family holds fairly popular in society at large.

The Church puts out the Family Proclamation--"one woman and one man--God says so".

Other props are considered. The Church puts up a fight. 2008 hits. The Church gets exposed as one of the major players in fighting against other's rights.

The Church continues to push against the allowance of same sex marriage.

It passes and same sex marriage becomes legal, as there were no credible arguments to keep it from happening any longer.

As a consequence the Church issues a change--"those who are gay are apostates. Their children can't be members lest they too sympathize with their parents. Maybe they can be a part of it if when they grow up they oppose their parents. Maybe..."

Backlash hits.

The Church gets a new revelation--"well, we've been praying and apparently we shouldn't have that policy of defining gay people apostates and refusing acceptance of their kids."

Holland shows up to BYU some years later "We got to get muskets out and fight against any member who think LGBTQ support is a good thing. What? Parents love their gay kids? Get your muskets out. We can't allow that. They are hurting our members. Did you read that letter some anonymous person wrote? My goodness. This is all out war. They are attacking us--these members who want to support and love others."

What steps will come to fix this stuff? Nice hole these old fools have put the Mormons in. Jesus, come and fix this crap.

[jlamothe]

I'm a little late to the discussion. I only recently learned that this forum even existed. There's already been a lot of excellent discussion, but here are my 2¢:

Holland's whole speech reeks of Orwellian double-speak. It's clear that he's going to hide behind the defense that the "musket fire" is a metaphor. That said, Holland chooses his words carefully. He has many followers who are going to take his words literally. He must know this.

A cynic might argue that he wants to be "misinterpreted" so that he doesn't have to get his hands dirty himself. Plausible deniability and all. At best, I find it difficult to believe that he actually cares about the possibility of physical harm coming to those who oppose the church's current policies. It's all about obedience.

Holland knows full well the weight his words carry. After all, he's no dodo. He needs to be held accountable for the consequences of what he says. Unfortunately, I doubt he ever will.

[Equality]

My cynical take after a day to think about it:

The timing of this talk is not coincidental. Holland was sent out to shore up the base. It's as simple as that. Last week, Rusty "Donuts" Nelson told the members of the church that they should get vaccinated and wear masks. And the base went crazy. The DezNats openly rebelled against the Prophet's counsel and started attacking the Brethren. So this week they sent Droopy Dog out to get them back in the tent.

The LDS LGBTQ community are the easiest targets to serve up as a blood sacrifice to the DezNat base.

And it worked. The right-wingers are ecstatic and all abuzz about how Holland really stuck it to the "Marxist critical theory" professors they think have infiltrated and taken over BYU.* And the church leaders are thrilled. If some of the DezNatters take Holland too literally and get out their "muskets," this is acceptable collateral damage from the corporation's point of view. The DezNats, the thinking goes, will merely go after the LGBTQ community who deserve whatever violence they suffer. After all, those LGBTQ people have been sowing "division" what with all their rainbow flags and parades and "symbols" and such, right?

*Example from a comment on a Mormon friend's Facebook wall by one of these right-wing "iron rod" Mormon types: "I have long suspected that the wokeism and slavish bowing to intersectionality and critical theory (a Marxist creation) that we’ve been seeing at BYU have at least SOMETHING to do with accreditation. I also know however that BYU students have been raised and educated in the same social media world as everyone else their age and that have attended the same victim/oppressor lectures and classes in school. Thus, there is likely a lot of pressure from the students, and frankly a lot of faculty and staff, BYU to be just like every other university and adopt the pablum." The comments on various sites where the talk has been posted or reported on contain similar sentiments. Looks like ole Rusty managed to successfully change the conversation to win back the hearts and minds of the DezNats.

[Sledge]

Do you guys feel embarrassed to tell people your degree is from BYU?

No. I don't have a college degree.