Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. If I may ask, how old were at this time of your life?
19.5 years old.
Perhaps not the same but the way you describe your experience reminds me of a guy I know pretty well. He is a Jewish friend of mine (non religious/secular) who has told me on more than one occasion about a trip he took to Israel when he was in his early 20's. He tells me that when he approached the Wailing Wall, he became very emotional, began to cry and describes this as a profound spiritual event in his life. (Almost how you described yours less the life-changing part.) But for him, that's as far as it went - Like nothing happened after that. He went to Jerusalem as a secular Jew and after this experience, he came home as a secular Jew - And remains a secular Jew to this day. Anyway, I don't really know what to make of his experience - or your experience - because, obviously, neither of them were my experience. My friend I speak of is a great guy and I always love speaking with him about his beliefs as a secular Jew and my beliefs as a Bible believing Christian. The cool part, in my opinion, is that these discussions never get tense and/or uncomfortable, rather, they are always really open and relaxed.
Very interesting, ceeboo! Thanks for sharing that. In my case I was not secular before or after the experience, and I wouldn’t call myself secular today.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Very interesting, ceeboo! Thanks for sharing that.
You're welcome - Thank you for the countless things you have shared with me over the years.
In my case I was not secular before or after the experience, and I wouldn’t call myself secular today.
Understood, I hope my post didn't paint you as secular, I only intended to convey that my friend was/is secular. But Since you brought it up, what would you consider yourself today.
If I recall correctly, mopologist William Schryver frequently bragged about receiving his Second Anointing.
Yes, I vividly remember this as well - The reason I remember it so well, at least in part, is because it was my first time hearing/learning about someone who has had their "election made sure" - and Schryver was also the person who introduced "circle-jerking" to me.
Hey Ceeboo!
The first time I heard the term “bukkake” was from Stephen Smoot.
You can sure learn a lot of great things from those mopologists.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."
Understood, I hope my post didn't paint you as secular, I only intended to convey that my friend was/is secular. But Since you brought it up, what would you consider yourself today.
I would have no problem being labeled as secular. I do secular scholarship. I think there is a place for secular methods, especially in a diverse, global environment. That said, what we perceive as human beings is a very small window to total reality. I don’t know that I like to label myself since I see my engagement with the world to be an ongoing process in which I still have a whole lot of learning left to do. I take it for granted that a supreme intelligence exists and work from there.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
I would have no problem being labeled as secular. I do secular scholarship. I think there is a place for secular methods, especially in a diverse, global environment. That said, what we perceive as human beings is a very small window to total reality. I don’t know that I like to label myself since I see my engagement with the world to be an ongoing process in which I still have a whole lot of learning left to do. I take it for granted that a supreme intelligence exists and work from there.
Ask Kish a freaking simple question and you would think the chances are pretty good that you will get a simple answer. Nope! You get an answer that forces you to think deeply, reflect and consider how profound the answer given was.
I take it for granted that a supreme intelligence exists ...
Would you suggest that anybody else would do well to follow your example? Or is it just like a particular taste in pizza toppings - you think pineapple has to be the starting point for any decent pizza, while I cannot manage without some goat's cheese in there somewhere, and can't see why anyone would want pineapple?
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Would you suggest that anybody else would do well to follow your example? Or is it just like a particular taste in pizza toppings - you think pineapple has to be the starting point for any decent pizza, while I cannot manage without some goat's cheese in there somewhere, and can't see why anyone would want pineapple?
I don't think my desire or recommendation of what I take to be the fundamental nature of reality is going to impact anyone else's views one way or the other, nor do I think it is necessary that they do. What is is, regardless of our opinions on the matter. We can fight about what is, but that is madness. If I am convinced of one thing, it is that fighting about the nature of reality is insanity. Since we are utterly incapable of understanding reality, we are better served by treating each other with kindness because, whether we like it or not, we are all in the same predicament.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
... we are better served by treating each other with kindness because, whether we like it or not, we are all in the same predicament.
Certainly!
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Would you suggest that anybody else would do well to follow your example? Or is it just like a particular taste in pizza toppings - you think pineapple has to be the starting point for any decent pizza, while I cannot manage without some goat's cheese in there somewhere, and can't see why anyone would want pineapple?
I don't think my desire or recommendation of what I take to be the fundamental nature of reality is going to impact anyone else's views one way or the other, nor do I think it is necessary that they do. What is is, regardless of our opinions on the matter. We can fight about what is, but that is madness. If I am convinced of one thing, it is that fighting about the nature of reality is insanity. Since we are utterly incapable of understanding reality, we are better served by treating each other with kindness because, whether we like it or not, we are all in the same predicament.
I’d be interested in reading a fleshed out post on the highlighted part above. I think as we grow older we start to notice the patterns and recurring cycles of reality in our world, so with that kind of insight we’re tempted to assign meaning to it. I know I do, but it gets real woo-y. If you have have a woo-take on the world, the universe, or your own subjective experiences I’d like to see them. Perhaps you’ll give us something to think about.
I’d be interested in reading a fleshed out post on the highlighted part above. I think as we grow older we start to notice the patterns and recurring cycles of reality in our world, so with that kind of insight we’re tempted to assign meaning to it. I know I do, but it gets real woo-y. If you have have a woo-take on the world, the universe, or your own subjective experiences I’d like to see them. Perhaps you’ll give us something to think about.
- Doc
I think I understand what you are saying, but I am not basing my judgment on recurring cycles to which I assign a greater meaning. There are two basic positions that are easy to contrast: those who think that matter is the basic stuff of reality and those who think consciousness/intelligence is. I fall into the latter category. This is a terrible oversimplification, of course, and certainly the discussion has become a lot fuzzier in recent times, as physics gets into the quantum realm, but most people who hash out religious stuff come from an ideology that favors either matter or consciousness. The former is by far and away the more popular ideological viewpoint these days, but it took some time to get there. It is a process that took at least four centuries.
Subjective experience is at the core of the latter view because we can only directly experience our own consciousness.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Since you brought it up, what would you consider yourself today.