I won't disagree. I would only add I think the extension of respect is a personal choice one makes and can make even when the other person is not choosing to do the same. So every break down of communication happens when both sides give up on extending respect...which isn't to say I think that it's a bad thing to recognize a discussion isn't going to happen. Like you, I find when it happens and I'm listening to my better angels it takes the form of quietly moving on. But since I'm a bit of a dick, it often instead takes the form of finding a chance to drag someone for sport. Something I'm working on.Chap wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:15 pmI'd see that working the other way round:honorentheos wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:11 amI came to the conclusion that discussion only really happens when both parties extending respect to the other. When I see people engaging with respect I generally expect both sides are seeking to explore the topic in good faith.
*In the context of a board such as this, I use the term 'discussion' to mean that people set out a position in good faith, and support it with argument and evidence; they then engage openly and honestly with any queries, criticisms, or alternative positions that others may advance. This does not of course exclude the use of humour. It does, however, exclude efforts to block or divert discussion by troll-like distraction, posts designed purely to take up bandwidth, and insults. Fortunately we now have an active Mod team to deal with that kind of thingWhen discussion* between two posters really happens, both parties are extending respect to the other by taking part in that activity.
Do We Really Have It Right?
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Every poster has a voice that comes through the screen to me. I can often tell when something is wrong with someone.ceeboo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:47 pmIf so, how often to we have it right? Sometimes? Most of the time? Rarely?
Obviously this isn't possible, but if we were able to have all these discussions in person, I can't help but believe that it is highly likely that my judgements and conclusions would be very different - At least is some instances. In addition, when we read a post from someone, we are only seeing the post (obviously) - But what would change, if anything, if we were able to see more than just a post - What If, in addition to a post, we had the benefit of body language - or tone - or emphasis of the spoken word. What if we could see how someone interacted with their neighbors, or how someone treated their spouse, or how someone spent their weekends. What if we had the benefit of knowing more about the person typing - Would it be relevant to know that their parent just passed away - or that they just lost their job - or that they just got married - or that they just went through a horrific divorce - or that they just reunited with a loved one - or that they just left a rehab facility, or that they are battling some disease or sickness. Would any of this be important to know and/or make a difference.
In any case, if posters would reply directly to what is on topic (tuning out the rhetoric), it would go a long way to preventing flame fests and thread damage. I'll expand on that another time if I feel like it.
LIGHT HAS A NAME
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
Slava Ukraini!
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
Slava Ukraini!
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Morning, honor!
This part of your post takes me right back to the beginning of this thread - right back to the OP.
While I think the idea of each thread being a new deal and a new chance for any participant to contribute is a really great idea/concept - Or, I might say, a nice opportunity and luxury that we would all enjoy having (At least most of us I would think) - I'm not so sure it's a reality but perhaps it is, or can be? (I need to chew on this some more.)
The last part of your comment has me thinking as well (the part I bolded) because I do this all the time - intentionally or not - I do it. To prove that I do this I need only to consider my board habits - meaning, when I see a post from certain posters, I almost always open it and before I even start reading it my mind is already in a place to deeply consider what I am about to read and I am looking forward to what I am about to read. On the other hand, when I see a post from other certain posters, I may or may not read it and if I do read it my mind is in another place again, before I even begin reading - I expect to read some degree of nonsense, or some amount of vitriol, or some sort of broad condemnation. This might be exactly what you were talking about with your "column a and column b?"
So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I am guilty of dragging history around and that is one of the things that brings me right back to the OP and it's one of the things that I am trying to shed from myself (in my opinion, this shedding from myself thing is very hard to do - it's much easier to tell other folks that they need to shed their stuff)
Anyway, just thinking out loud with you.
Thanks for the post.
(Bold mine.)honorentheos wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:59 am...... That said, each discussion should be about the topic at hand, each thread a new deal and chance for any participant to contribute, and my best chance of building rather than being a wrecker comes from focusing on the topic as presented. Nothing good ever seems to come from dragging history around.
This part of your post takes me right back to the beginning of this thread - right back to the OP.
While I think the idea of each thread being a new deal and a new chance for any participant to contribute is a really great idea/concept - Or, I might say, a nice opportunity and luxury that we would all enjoy having (At least most of us I would think) - I'm not so sure it's a reality but perhaps it is, or can be? (I need to chew on this some more.)
The last part of your comment has me thinking as well (the part I bolded) because I do this all the time - intentionally or not - I do it. To prove that I do this I need only to consider my board habits - meaning, when I see a post from certain posters, I almost always open it and before I even start reading it my mind is already in a place to deeply consider what I am about to read and I am looking forward to what I am about to read. On the other hand, when I see a post from other certain posters, I may or may not read it and if I do read it my mind is in another place again, before I even begin reading - I expect to read some degree of nonsense, or some amount of vitriol, or some sort of broad condemnation. This might be exactly what you were talking about with your "column a and column b?"
So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I am guilty of dragging history around and that is one of the things that brings me right back to the OP and it's one of the things that I am trying to shed from myself (in my opinion, this shedding from myself thing is very hard to do - it's much easier to tell other folks that they need to shed their stuff)
Anyway, just thinking out loud with you.
Thanks for the post.
Last edited by ceeboo on Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Hey Jersey Girl
Thanks for the post.
What does my voice sound like? (Serious question)Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:25 amEvery poster has a voice that comes through the screen to me.
For the most part, I agree with you, but I must say, some of the off-topic posts that I read in threads add value to this community, sometimes significant value, in my opinion. Some of them allow people to share their gift of humor with the board, some of them display fabulous wit, sometimes an off-topic post will cause me (or all of us?) to pause, reflect and/or chill for a second before I/we return to banging away at my keyboard. I almost see some of these off-topic posts as a timeout of sorts and, like I said, sometimes I think a timeout is exactly what a thread needs from time to time. Again, these are just my opinions.In any case, if posters would reply directly to what is on topic (tuning out the rhetoric), it would go a long way to preventing flame fests and thread damage.
I hope you feel like it sometime soon.I'll expand on that another time if I feel like it.
Thanks for the post.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Certainly. A few off topic posts are however clearly designed to sabotage a discussion that the poster dislikes, by filling the thread with nonsense and insults that are the discussion board equivalent of 'white noise'.
Fortunately, we now have mods to deal with that.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Happy Tuesday, ceebs.
There's a saying I heard as a youth that stuck with me. That being, great minds focus on ideas, mediocre minds on events, and weak minds talk about people. As an adult I recognize the oversimplification of the quip and it's shortcomings. But there's a solid nugget in it that I tried to state up thread. That being, regardless of who one is engaged with in an attempt at discussion, it is our choice to engage their thoughts, or focus on events, or bicker about the person or people in every single instance. Hard stop. They may not shift gears to in turn engage in a discussion about the ideas and thinking involved in a subject. They may choose to stop dragging around the person v. person vendetta and muse on something that happened of which they are reminded. Or they may never do more than grumble about such-and-such people.
We can't control or expect the discussion to go any particular way at all. But we can exercise (intentional word choice, that) our own agency against the biases and traps that interfere with discussion occuring. We can operate on the principle of greatest charity when we first read any poster, for example. That principle being, a persons expressed view is coming from a place that is internally consistent and sincerely held, built on foundational values that should be afforded enough dignity to be assumed as valid enough to be worth understanding before one engages the arguments being presented rather than just dismissing them as garbage or stupid or what have you.
That's my view of the OP. It's absolutely spot on and worth keeping front of us, not just online but in life, too. But the real value comes from accepting we never have it figured out and can sit back sipping tea just because so-and-so is the one posting/talking/etc. We are always engaging a fabrication held within our own minds rather than the pure true self that is another human being. Hell, we can't even know our own minds that well.
Extend respect because being a person in 2021 isn't easy. Be charitable because everyone is the result of countless processes and events that produces them which, had it been me would likely mean I'd be in the same position. And be skeptical of certitude because certitude is the death of knowledge.
I should stress a particular point that I probably gloss over but is critical. It isn't that we have it wrong about the people with whom we interact on the board. It's that we can't ever have it right. We can't know the person on the other side of the screen. While it's an impossible task to avoid forming biases around expectations, as you excellently point out above, they are expectations formed of the likely value of the post based on a shorthand we have formed in our own heads we associate with the screen name.ceeboo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:10 amMorning, honor!
(Bold mine.)honorentheos wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:59 am...... That said, each discussion should be about the topic at hand, each thread a new deal and chance for any participant to contribute, and my best chance of building rather than being a wrecker comes from focusing on the topic as presented. Nothing good ever seems to come from dragging history around.
This part of your post takes me right back to the beginning of this thread - right back to the OP.
While I think the idea of each thread being a new deal and a new chance for any participant to contribute is a really great idea/concept - Or, I might say, a nice opportunity and luxury that we would all enjoy having (At least most of us I would think) - I'm not so sure it's a reality but perhaps it is, or can be? (I need to chew on this some more.)
The last part of your comment has me thinking as well (the part I bolded) because I do this all the time - intentionally or not - I do it. To prove that I do this I need only to consider my board habits - meaning, when I see a post from certain posters, I almost always open it and before I even start reading it my mind is already in a place to deeply consider what I am about to read and I am looking forward to what I am about to read. On the other hand, when I see a post from other certain posters, I may or may not read it and if I do read it my mind is in another place again, before I even begin reading - I expect to read some degree of nonsense, or some amount of vitriol, or some sort of broad condemnation. This might be exactly what you were talking about with your "column a and column b?"
So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I am guilty of dragging history around and that is one of the things that brings me right back to the OP and it's one of the things that I am trying to shed from myself (in my opinion, this shedding from myself thing is very hard to do - it's much easier to tell other folks that they need to shed their stuff)
Anyway, just thinking out loud with you.
Thanks for the post.
There's a saying I heard as a youth that stuck with me. That being, great minds focus on ideas, mediocre minds on events, and weak minds talk about people. As an adult I recognize the oversimplification of the quip and it's shortcomings. But there's a solid nugget in it that I tried to state up thread. That being, regardless of who one is engaged with in an attempt at discussion, it is our choice to engage their thoughts, or focus on events, or bicker about the person or people in every single instance. Hard stop. They may not shift gears to in turn engage in a discussion about the ideas and thinking involved in a subject. They may choose to stop dragging around the person v. person vendetta and muse on something that happened of which they are reminded. Or they may never do more than grumble about such-and-such people.
We can't control or expect the discussion to go any particular way at all. But we can exercise (intentional word choice, that) our own agency against the biases and traps that interfere with discussion occuring. We can operate on the principle of greatest charity when we first read any poster, for example. That principle being, a persons expressed view is coming from a place that is internally consistent and sincerely held, built on foundational values that should be afforded enough dignity to be assumed as valid enough to be worth understanding before one engages the arguments being presented rather than just dismissing them as garbage or stupid or what have you.
That's my view of the OP. It's absolutely spot on and worth keeping front of us, not just online but in life, too. But the real value comes from accepting we never have it figured out and can sit back sipping tea just because so-and-so is the one posting/talking/etc. We are always engaging a fabrication held within our own minds rather than the pure true self that is another human being. Hell, we can't even know our own minds that well.
Extend respect because being a person in 2021 isn't easy. Be charitable because everyone is the result of countless processes and events that produces them which, had it been me would likely mean I'd be in the same position. And be skeptical of certitude because certitude is the death of knowledge.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
Back at ya, honor!
My first thought was to quote several parts of this and comment - But after reading it, twice, and thinking a bit, I thought to myself "why would you take a chance to potentially distract from, or muddy up such a fantastic post?" So I won't. I'll just say Thanks, honor!I should stress a particular point that I probably gloss over but is critical. It isn't that we have it wrong about the people with whom we interact on the board. It's that we can't ever have it right. We can't know the person on the other side of the screen. While it's an impossible task to avoid forming biases around expectations, as you excellently point out above, they are expectations formed of the likely value of the post based on a shorthand we have formed in our own heads we associate with the screen name.
There's a saying I heard as a youth that stuck with me. That being, great minds focus on ideas, mediocre minds on events, and weak minds talk about people. As an adult I recognize the oversimplification of the quip and it's shortcomings. But there's a solid nugget in it that I tried to state up thread. That being, regardless of who one is engaged with in an attempt at discussion, it is our choice to engage their thoughts, or focus on events, or bicker about the person or people in every single instance. Hard stop. They may not shift gears to in turn engage in a discussion about the ideas and thinking involved in a subject. They may choose to stop dragging around the person v. person vendetta and muse on something that happened of which they are reminded. Or they may never do more than grumble about such-and-such people.
We can't control or expect the discussion to go any particular way at all. But we can exercise (intentional word choice, that) our own agency against the biases and traps that interfere with discussion occuring. We can operate on the principle of greatest charity when we first read any poster, for example. That principle being, a persons expressed view is coming from a place that is internally consistent and sincerely held, built on foundational values that should be afforded enough dignity to be assumed as valid enough to be worth understanding before one engages the arguments being presented rather than just dismissing them as garbage or stupid or what have you.
That's my view of the opening post. It's absolutely spot on and worth keeping front of us, not just online but in life, too. But the real value comes from accepting we never have it figured out and can sit back sipping tea just because so-and-so is the one posting/talking/etc. We are always engaging a fabrication held within our own minds rather than the pure true self that is another human being. Hell, we can't even know our own minds that well.
Extend respect because being a person in 2021 isn't easy. Be charitable because everyone is the result of countless processes and events that produces them which, had it been me would likely mean I'd be in the same position. And be skeptical of certitude because certitude is the death of knowledge.
One of the best posts in the thread thus far, in my opinion,
Really really good - Deeply profound - Very thoughtful - And unavoidably thought provoking.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?
You sound like Ceeboo. If something seemed off in your voice, there's a pretty good chance I'd pick up on it. I'd likely not be the only one. Some of us are tuned in. Some of us have special antenna.ceeboo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:26 amHey Jersey Girl
What does my voice sound like? (Serious question)Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:25 amEvery poster has a voice that comes through the screen to me.

LIGHT HAS A NAME
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
Slava Ukraini!
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
Slava Ukraini!