The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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Gadianton
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The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

Post by Gadianton »

I had a pretty horrible experience this afternoon. On my walk I came across my right-wing friend who was talking to another right-wing guy. This other guy I run into now and again, and we've always been cordial. He makes politically charged inferences from time to time and I duck and move on. This guy claims to be ex special forces, he's pretty cut so it's believable, but he's strung like an E string on a violin and I worry about him snapping, and so that's why I avoid him.

Well, clearly he'd been in a political discussion with my friend as they are largely agreed, and somehow I got suckered into it and I ended up uttering the fateful words that QAnon is obviously BS, and then from there I endured forty minutes of this guy berating me. Compared to this guy, Ajax has the temperament of an accountant. He's full-on QAnon, and the first disciple of QAnon I've actually met in real life. He claimed that his special forces friends are working directly with Mike Flynn right now and that the military will prevent Biden from taking presidency. The discussion I had interrupted was about trucks -- peppered with references to "what's coming and getting ready" -- as he's preparing his arsenal, and it turned out that he accepts a bare possibility that the coup won't work, and that he will have to join a faction to fight for his country. He made it clear that he would shoot and kill Democrats when that day comes, including a long time friend of his who is a Democrat and blocked him on Facebook after this guy berated him for being a communist because he voted Biden. He also accused me of being a communist.

The conversation turned into the most surreal conversation I've ever had with anybody. He's QAnon down to claims of video evidence of Lady Gaga feasting on child parts. He literally yelled this question at me: "Do you believe in pizza gate????"

I'll admit I was a little unnerved, and I was unable to get questions in such as regarding his beliefs about Ramtha the alien (Ajax's friend?).

The part of the discussion I felt the most sympathy for, was his sentiments boots-on-the-ground in combat. From his telling, he'd seen some really bad crap, and I've never been in combat and afraid for my life and so I really don't want to just brush off his experiences as nothing. However, sometimes it was unclear to me whether he was referring to his own experiences, or experiences of his active military friends.

So here's how he told it: He said that under Obama, he was not allowed to have ammunition while in Afghanistan because they were only allowed to respond to attacks, and that he had to fear for his life, whereas with Trump, they were allowed to strike first if they felt it was necessary. He spoke generally of not being supported properly under Obama, but supported very well by Trump as a soldier with boots on the ground. And for this reason, there is no way any veteran is going to stand for Biden as president, and thus if the coup fails, the veterans will arise for civil war and take back their country.

Now, I believe that in this election, military is pretty split and Biden got nearly half of military votes, so it's obviously not as clear-cut as this guy portrays. But, I'm curious about Dr. Cam's experience both directly and with the many military people he obviously knows, and how he and his peers felt the support of democratic vs. republican presidencies as actual soldiers in war.
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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So, you have acquaintances in the neighborhood who are casually discussing their plans about killing neighbors who disagree with their choice of candidate?
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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For context, roughly how old would you say this guy is?

Tangential anecdote: in the lead up to Y2K I had started college and was completing my enlistment in an Army Reserve unit. I was good friends with a guy who was well past his 20 years in, capped out at SFC, and physically sounds like your acquaintance in the OP. (Wiry, high strung) He was a prepper before that was a thing and he was excited for the world to come apart on 1/1/2000. His plans for News Years Eve involved sitting with the lights off in his house, news on, and a rifle aimed at his neighbor's house who he planned on shooting as soon as crap started going down. He was disappointed when it turned out to be a non-event.

He was incredibly knowledgeable regarding his job, managed his platoon fine, and was an interesting, entertaining guy to be around. I honestly liked him and liked working with him. But I have zero doubt he wanted to kill his neighbor and had a small arsenal in his hoarding hell hole of a prepper house that he was burning with excitement about the prospect of finally getting to use. I think it presented a chance for him to be proved right more than anything else.

As a professional, there are still people like that I know and work with. One of the company owners turned into a prepper and has a few AR-15s, handguns, and the demeanor of someone who would be excited to finally get to kill liberals. He's also a moron when it comes to politics and the like. He never served, was basically a hippie in the 70s who hated paying taxes once he grew up and got a job, and was so detached from reality when it comes to politics I had to remind him he had grandkids in the school system he was berating once for taking his tax dollars with no return to him. I have zero doubt he'd shoot someone and be excited about it if crap went down. But I also have zero doubt he'd be completely unprepared for when someone shot back, and fall apart when someone he was standing next to took a bullet.

What they both have in common is I'd bet money they are/were sociopaths with an unrealistic, one sided view of combat.

That's the part of your story that bothers me. Your friend reads like these two people who never saw combat and have a one sided view of it. I'm not saying I don't think he served. But I highly doubt he was actually in a fire fight. It's a bit like imagining a nurse in an ICU having an ajax-like view of Covid. I'd be skeptical of a nurse or doctor who talked like they were around it at it's worst saying they want conditions that would expose their families to Covid. Could be, but my initial assumption would be they were at most Covid-adjacent but not directly dealing with it.
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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Trumpers are like deadly cyborgs waiting for the code of automatic rampage to be entered. They have stockpiled weapons for years in anticipation of creating a new Reich.

For non-fighters, try to blend in. Say crazy things about Pizzagate and any other things you remember Ajax and Subgenius going on about.
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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Moksha wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:57 pm
Trumpers are like deadly cyborgs waiting for the code of automatic rampage to be entered. They have stockpiled weapons for years in anticipation of creating a new Reich.

For non-fighters, try to blend in. Say crazy things about Pizzagate and any other things you remember Ajax and Subgenius going on about.
Moksha, we've known each other online for a while. You seem like a decent, intelligent person. But you're also as one-sided and unrealistic about politics as ajax is just coming from the other side of it. You demonstrate zero regard for the humanity of those who do not share your views, and zero regard or recognition of the fundamental mechanics and principles of a system that has to hold together a pluralistic society composed of people with wildly different views. This isn't a time for partisan BS. The threat isn't from trumpets alone, but from extremists who can't see past their own interests and whose values are as shallow as their egos are fragile.

Being on the right side of this doesn't automatically make a person's view right.
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:08 am
But, I'm curious about Dr. Cam's experience both directly and with the many military people he obviously knows, and how he and his peers felt the support of democratic vs. republican presidencies as actual soldiers in war.
Hi, Gad. I posted a bit in response to a post by Moksha on another thread, it might serve the discussion well to post it here:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:15 pm
Moksha wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:32 am
Do military people hold any grudges for things that Trump has said about them?
You kind of have a few factions.

Faction #1 - Never Trumpers - This is probably around 40%, which is reflective of the general population because the military is a pretty good cross section of our middle and lower class strata. They, of course, seethe at having a moron and utter degenerate as their Commander in Chief. They do, in fact, remember his disrespect for living and dead military personnel.

Faction #2 - The Flynnians - These are the Forever Trumpers and sizable contingent of apocalyptic Christians who are like the Conservatives on this board. They’re stupid, don’t read, easily influenced by paranoia and conspiracy theories, and devout to whatever cause they think is the most important cause (guns, illegal immigration, America is under attack, abortion, taxes, whatever).

Faction #3 - The One-Termers - These are the Enlisted folks who just want to pay off college loans, get the GI Bill, or wanted to do something interesting before they have to commit to the drudgery of a career. They just want to not get caught partying. Politics is generally pretty far away outside of the snippets they catch from colleagues discussing it. The Officer side is similar except they’re either knocking out their service obligation because of ROTC, Green to Gold (I don’t know what the non-Army equivalent is), or they’re just trying to leverage their time into a good private sector gig. in my opinion, they don’t get wrapped up in politics until later.

Faction #4 - The Grey Men - These guys are different from the Flynnians because they’re typically pretty irreligious, pretty grounded, get into SOF type units, and the kind of people you hope never pick up a weapon outside of target practice or deer hunting once they’re retired or out. They’re into their own thing and don’t really care what politicians say about anything. They’re the guys who’d actually know what they’re doing if crap goes sideways, and you just hope they stick with the feds if the feds are trying to hold the country together in the event of a civil war. They’re genuinely terrifying because they’re the true alphas who live their lives on their terms, which don’t necessarily align with yours.

Faction #5 - The Derpoids - This is a hodgepodge of dudes who have no identity outside of the military service, the burnouts, the stolen valor types, and the wannabes. They’re all over the place and they don’t matter. They’re the ldsfaqs of the world.

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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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honorentheos wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:06 pm
Being on the right side of this doesn't automatically make a person's view right.
You do realize moksha likes to joke around, right? Is there space for that here?
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

Post by honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:22 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:06 pm
Being on the right side of this doesn't automatically make a person's view right.
You do realize moksha likes to joke around, right? Is there space for that here?
"I was just joking," has lost significant cachet after Trump over used it.
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

As far as Qanon goes, that's literally a meme created on 4chan that has exploited a good portion of the population's brains which are wired for paranoia and seeing patterns that explain the mysteries of reality. It shortcuts the hard work of digging into an issue, why the issue is there, what's being done about the issue, and simply provides an answer that's easily digestible. I don't believe the military is any more disposed to Qanon theories than the rest of society. But back to his claims...

Honor has it about right, allowing for the nuances that are ever present in the human brain for each individual.

So. First. Let's get the ammo thing out of the way. As far as I'm aware, the President isn't responsible for dictating to commanders in a combat zone who gets to carry ammo and who doesn't. I went to Iraq twice. I was slated to go to Afghanistan, but ended up taking a First Sergeant assignment* - I'm very, very familiar with operations in that country for a host of reasons so I feel confident in making the claim that the President had no oversight on whether or not personnel did or did not carry ammo. That was always dependent on their jobs, their assignments, the commander's 'rules' for that AO, etc.

* I should note I wasn't trying to avoid going to Afghanistan, but was rather counselled, literally, to take a leadership assignment because my supervisor felt we had an obligation to do so. In fact, it's probably one of my biggest regrets to have bypassed the Afghanistan assignment for a First Sergeant one. If I had to do it again, I would've done the tour in country and then picked up a leadership assignment afterward, if it were still available.

Second, you can be assigned to a special missions unit and not be a direct combat guy. These units have a LOT of support personnel, like myself, and it doesn't necessarily mean you yourself are some sort of tactical guru. The culture of these units kind of get deep into you, ie, really getting into the best performing rifle platforms, or the best hand gun, or whatever. You also do a LOT of training. A lot. I can't really overemphasize that. Lots of med, tac, technical, language, hand-to-hand combat, pt, and job-related training. So, it wouldn't be unusual for a support guy to come out of an assignment with the veneer of 'SF Guy', but in reality he was 'Support Guy'. While I was assigned to my unit there were a handful of times where I was hard as woodpecker lips, but it didn't change the fact that I was still military intelligence and an order of magnitude removed from the competence and professionalism of an operator. Those guys are straight up on another level of reality. It's akin to comparing a fit high school football player with an NFL pro bowler. Very different.

Which brings me to your friend. I don't know him from Adam. But from what you described he falls squarely within the Flynnian type of military guy. I can't really figure out what his job was in the military from your description, but I'd suspect he was someone who was attached to an SF unit in a support capacity, or possibly assigned to one in a support capacity. I can tell you though, he doesn't strike me as someone who went through the psychological vetting that'd allow him to be assigned to a tier one unit. Basically, it goes like this:

Regular Army, Combat Arms - You just have to pass some basic screenings to get in - no criminal history, no severe psychological issues, and an ability to adapt to the culture. This pool of personnel has all sorts of people that are reflective of America at large. This is the feeder pool into:

Rangers/SF, Combat Arms - The two are different in their missions and usually you go from Rangers into SF, but it's not totally unheard of to bypass the Rangers and get into selection for SF, especially if you're coming from different branches. There are additional psychological screenings in each organization, but I couldn't really say how exhaustive they are. I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, that SF has stricter psyche evals because you go from a purely tactical organization (the Rangers) to one that interfaces heavily with in-country types. You really can't have unstable folks in SF training other people, but from what I've seen it doesn't preclude egomaniacs from getting in. SF has its share of BIG egos, but again, I'd suggest that's the exception rather than the norm. Most SF guys are smart, clever, have good memory retention, are generally pretty chill, and of course are exceptional physically. These guys are the main feeder into tier one units:

Tier One - There are multiple tier one units, not just the 'big names' you hear in the media. I think people would be astonished, actually, and probably wonder why there are so many. Long story short, they're heavily specialized and they mostly support one another and other agencies. I'm not going to go into details, and it's not because I want to be 'secret squirrely', it's just impossible to talk about them without violating NDAs. What I can say is that they're HEAVILY VETTED. Heavily. You get the once-in-a-blue-moon whack a doodle, but that's just human nature in that a sociopath can fake their way into whatever they want to do. All I can say from my experience is that these people are easily the best human beings I've ever been around in a holistic sense. These are the grey men I talk about above. They have, generally speaking, a grasp on government, structure, policy, laws, regulations, and everything in between. They understand why something exists, because it was necessary to exist, and that it serves a function in the rule of law and for society to function. I don't believe your friend was a tier one guy.

Anyway. I think that kind of answers your question? I'd have to know more about your friend in order to pin his experience and personality down.

- Doc
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Re: The Military and Trump: Questions for Dr. Cam

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honorentheos wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:35 pm
... the demeanor of someone who would be excited to finally get to kill liberals.
Not that it would matter if - as Doc puts it - things get ‘hot’, but it’s weird how much overlap there probably is between folks willing to do this, and folks who seem to use the abortion issue as their reason to be on that same side of the political fence.
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