The Beginning of the End of Mormonism?

[Jersey Girl]

Consider this: There are thousands of mutually contradictory religious belief systems available, all or most of which claim to be based on subjective faith in divine revelation and authority. This is the strongest possible evidence we can have of the unreliability of the subjective faith approach to discerning truth. Even if one of these mutually contradictory religions really were the infallible, divinely revealed truth its devout proponents or prophets claim it to be, the unreliability of that approach to discerning truth is still established beyond all reasonable doubt! Again, see my signature line!

Are you saying that the end goal of faith is to discern truth?

[Some Schmo]

When you write here about the value of faith, why is it that you mention one benefit--that of comfort? Do you think that faith has any other impact on a believer? If so, what would that be?

I don't know. I can't think of any other benefits that aren't rooted in comfort or avoiding pain.

As I was reading the comments here about faith and belief, I realized that in all my experiences with LDS on the ground and on these boards (that's about 40 years total) there is one statement that I've never heard come from a member of the LDS Church.

"I don't know".

Heh. That's funny (I totally hear you). When I first left the church at 17, I considered that my whole philosophy in life. "I don't know." I came to believe that people who say they know are full of crap.

Obviously, I've softened on that stance. Some things are more knowable than others.

[Some Schmo]

Or you could simply say, "I have confidence in my daughter's ability to pass her college exams."

That's what that post was essentially suggesting, Jersey Girl. I don't use the word "faith" that way because it makes certain religious people all twitterpated.

[canpakes]

When you write here about the value of faith, why is it that you mention one benefit--that of comfort? Do you think that faith has any other impact on a believer? If so, what would that be?

I don't know. I can't think of any other benefits that aren't rooted in comfort or avoiding pain.

Jersey Girl, this seems like a reasonable conclusion. I’ve noticed that many LDS friends or family members (and at least one Evangelical) list a comfort in knowing ‘x’ as a reason to believe in the faith claims/doctrine of the Church (as example, the ‘families forever’ concept).

In your opinion, what are the strongest driving forces for belief?

[Res Ipsa]

I think there's a disconnect here. Jersey Girl asked about value other than comfort. Another value I see is that it helps many people be better people or, put another way, the people that they aspire to be. I think both Jersey Girl and Huckleberry are good examples. It works on both the individual level and in a community of folks with like aspirations. Religion has performed that function for nearly all of the believers that I've known throughout my life.

I'm not claiming that it works this way universally. But it certainly qualifies as value for a great many people.

[ajax18]

And you know I kind of agree with this. I was wondering whether Jill Biden was a heart surgeon or oncologist. Then I found out the truth.

When and how did you find out the truth?

Did you forget that you're not supposed to be talking to me?

Jill Biden has a doctorate in Educational instruction. She's not a medical doctor. If someone had a heart attack on a plane, she'd be of no more use than any other lay person. Someone with that degree who demands to be addressed as doctor outside of academia or off campus has some self esteem issues in my opinion. Does Newt Gingrich demand to be addressed as Dr. because he has a PhD in history? I don't even allow people to call me Doctor outside of the office. I'm just Ajax, Bro. Ajax, or Dad. If it's mail that has something to do with work, I'm Ajax OD. I'm certainly not going to claim someone who addresses me as Mr. Ajax is racist or sexist.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

When and how did you find out the truth?

Did you forget that you're not supposed to be talking to me?

Jill Biden has a doctorate in Educational instruction. She's not a medical doctor. If someone had a heart attack on a plane, she'd be of no more use than any other lay person. Someone with that degree who demands to be addressed as doctor outside of academia or off campus has some self esteem issues in my opinion. Does Newt Gingrich demand to be addressed as Dr. because he has a PhD in history? I don't even allow people to call me Doctor outside of the office. I'm just Ajax, Bro. Ajax, or Dad. If it's mail that has something to do with work, I'm Ajax OD. I'm certainly not going to claim someone who addresses me as Mr. Ajax is racist or sexist.

Funny how you never had an objection over all these years to Dr. Peterson insisting he be called Dr. Peterson. Perhaps you should go onto his blog and explain to him and his little cabal of sycophants that an honorary title like "doctor" stay reserved for medical professionals?

- Doc

[Some Schmo]

I think there's a disconnect here. Jersey Girl asked about value other than comfort. Another value I see is that it helps many people be better people or, put another way, the people that they aspire to be. I think both Jersey Girl and Huckleberry are good examples. It works on both the individual level and in a community of folks with like aspirations. Religion has performed that function for nearly all of the believers that I've known throughout my life.

I'm not claiming that it works this way universally. But it certainly qualifies as value for a great many people.

I question that idea, RI. That feels like putting the carriage before the horse. Does faith make people better, or does being a good person make you act faithful to the altruistic parts of your religion?

There was a long time where I blamed religion for making people worse, but I think I always had it backward. I think bad people use religion to excuse their shittiness. By the same token, I think people give religion too much credit for their innate goodness.

In other words, people bring their own personality to religion, not so much their religion to their personality, in my experience.

[Res Ipsa]

I think there's a disconnect here. Jersey Girl asked about value other than comfort. Another value I see is that it helps many people be better people or, put another way, the people that they aspire to be. I think both Jersey Girl and Huckleberry are good examples. It works on both the individual level and in a community of folks with like aspirations. Religion has performed that function for nearly all of the believers that I've known throughout my life.

I'm not claiming that it works this way universally. But it certainly qualifies as value for a great many people.

I question that idea, RI. That feels like putting the carriage before the horse. Does faith make people better, or does being a good person make you act faithful to the altruistic parts of your religion?

There was a long time where I blamed religion for making people worse, but I think I always had it backward. I think bad people use religion to excuse their crap. By the same token, I think people give religion too much credit for their innate goodness.

In other words, people bring their own personality to religion, not so much their religion to their personality, in my experience.

Yeah, I know it's a controversial subject among us nonbelievers. I believe that most people see themselves as good people and aspire to be better people. I'll bet you are one of them. Is there anything or anyone that you think helps you be a good or become a better person? Or do you just tap some inner reservoir of innate goodness?

[Some Schmo]

Yeah, I know it's a controversial subject among us nonbelievers. I believe that most people see themselves as good people and aspire to be better people. I'll bet you are one of them. Is there anything or anyone that you think helps you be a good or become a better person? Or do you just tap some inner reservoir of innate goodness?

My family helps make me a better person, but only because I'm motivated to have solid relationships with my family, so ultimately, I'm making me a better person to the extent I can.

If I learn something new, it's because something in me wanted to learn that thing. If I practice something, it's because something in me wants to become more skilled.

Just think of the infinite number of lessons you could learn in a day just by living your life, the things you are exposed to each day. What do you actually learn from each day? Only the things to which a certain something inside of you told you to pay attention.

That's why a religion is just an intellectual buffet; people pick up what they want to put on their plate and leave the rest for others.