Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_beastie]

That's correct. In a context that you know better than I, I rarely see or experience Mormons who enjoy that freedom. There is always something more to do, some ordinance, some "thing" that is required of them. And, they seem to be constantly fighting their guilt. That is not what God wants us to experience. This is just my experience, of course, but that's my perspective.

Of course. But repentance involves an intellectual recognition. Human beings are funny lot. We feel guilt as an emotional response to a lot. I think if takes an intellectual recognition that we are forgiven, rather than an emotional one.

So which theological concepts must one intellectually grasp before being able to have true freedom in Christ?

And why is the indwelling of the spirit insufficient to give that freedom? (which, by the way, Mormons call the peace of Christ, and which they claim to possess)

And where does this leave people who lack the intellectual capacity to truly grasp theological concepts? Out of luck? Saved, but miserable?

[_Hoops]

Really? This is your idea of discussing things? Ok. I'll play for a while.

So which theological concepts must one intellectually grasp before being able to have true freedom in Christ?

I would start with the fact that by Christ our sins are forgiven, all of them, once and for all time. Yesterday's, today's, and tomorrow's.

And why is the indwelling of the spirit insufficient to give that freedom?

Because the Holy Spirit isn't a brute. We see that from the very beginning of Creation. He's not insufficient but when we try to add some qualifier to the work of Christ, some added requirement, He won't get in the way.

(which, by the way, Mormons call the peace of Christ, and which they claim to possess)

I'm sure some Mormons do indeed. I would have no way of knowing, since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "deposit of guarantee" of our salvation.

And where does this leave people who lack the intellectual capacity to truly grasp theological concepts?

What do you mean "where does this leave people..."? Are they saved? Of course, again, for the hundredth time, God is Justice and Mercy.

Out of luck? Saved, but miserable?

These two little addendums tell me all I need to know about how much you really want to know. Which also tells me how much you really do know about Christianity broadly and evangelicalism specifically. But you still seem to think your qualified to dismiss the religion and its adherents. I

[_beastie]

Here’s what I think of the “True Freedom of Christ” or the “Peace of Christ.”

I think that if there really is a God, then this feeling or state would be a result of sincerely believing in Jesus and the atonement. It would be, as religions often explain, the result of the “indwelling” or “Gift of the Holy Ghost.” It would not be dependent upon understanding correct theology. It would be a gift of the spirit.

If there really is no God, then this feeling or state would be a result of intellectual and psychological processes. It would be the result of convincing oneself, through intellectual and psychological means, of this state. I’m not saying that in a belittling way, by the way. I think that it can be very healthy to use intellectual and psychological means to improve one’s mental state, and “self-talk” is often a crucial part of that.

Since I don’t believe a God exists, then Hoops’ assertion makes sense. But here’s the rub.

People are so varied in terms of psychology and personality traits that it just isn’t possible to have “one size fits all.”

Ever since losing any belief in a godbeing, I have regarded religious choice in a similar fashion to mating choices. One has to take into consideration one’s natural predispositions and needs. One has to find a religion that is a good “psychological match.” What is a good match for one may be toxic for another.

Some people are naturally quite driven and tend toward self-analysis and self-castigation. This type of person would likely benefit more from being told that a simple process results in complete forgiveness. This type of person would likely be anxious in a religion like Mormonism, which stresses that the road to forgiveness entails leaving behind the sin altogether. One cannot keep repeating the same sin, over and over, and expect God to view the repentance as sincere.

Some people are far more laid-back and tend to over-estimate their positive traits, and minimize or completely ignore their negative. This type of person would likely benefit more from a religion like Mormonism, which would prod and prompt them to, in addition to seeking forgiveness, really work in a serious fashion toward changing one’s behavior rather than relying on instant, and sometimes repeated, forgiveness. This type of person may be over-indulgent in a religion that stresses a simple process, and may end up repeating destructive behavior over and over without feeling the necessary anxiety about that behavior to attempt real change.

I have experiences with both types of individuals. I have a good friend whose husband completely abandoned organized religion in disgust due to his father’s behavior. His father engaged in very hurtful behavior, mostly affairs and drinking, on a repeated basis. Yet he was a good Catholic who felt completely forgiven after confession. He felt no anxiety about permanently altering his behavior. His ticket to forgiveness actually indulged him in that it allowed him to repeat the behavior without feeling anxiety about eventual forgiveness.

I had a liberal Mormon friend on the internet years ago who stated that she recognized she had the tendency to be too easy on herself, and a bit lazy. She felt that Mormonism encouraged her in a more structured way to improve. She felt that the easier forgiveness offered by other religions would not have helped her make those improvements.

By contrast, I am pretty driven and hard on myself. I constantly question my behavior and feel guilty for things I really shouldn’t. Mormonism was not a good psychological fit for me. I never felt “the peace of Christ” in Mormonism.

However, I also never felt the peace of Christ or the True Freedom of Christ as an Episcopalian, either. But this was due to my natural inclination to question and analyze religious claims, a habit I had picked up while journeying out of Mormonism. So I couldn’t feel peace as long as the claims of Christianity just didn’t make sense to me, even as I tried to make sense of it.

The one thing that brought me peace of mind was atheism. Once I abandoned the need to try to make religion make sense, I felt peace. Once I understood more about human nature, as the result of evolution, I felt more able to accept myself as a flawed human being. That doesn’t mean I stopped trying to improve, but rather that I stopped internally beating myself up for not improving enough.

I suspect Hoops has based her conclusion that Mormons have a hard time really feeling The Freedom of Christ is due to the fact that Hoops largely converses with exmormons or questioning Mormons. There are many Mormons who seem quite happy with their lives. But they’re not going to be nattering on the internet about these things, either. My parents seem quite happy with their lives. Mormonism has always been a good psychological match for them. They’re happier as Mormons than they were as Methodists. My sister is an unhappy Mormon. It is not a good fit for her,

So, in an odd way, I agree with Hoops. Intellectual and psychological “self-talk”, based on interpretations of beliefs, can be important in feeling internal peace and contentment. But given varied human needs, there is no one size fits all that will bring about that state.

I disagree with Hoops in that I think that if there were a real God, sending the Spirit to indwell or be a gift to people, then that peace would not be dependent on intellectual and psychological self-talk. It would be a gift from God.

[_beastie]

Really? This is your idea of discussing things? Ok. I'll play for a while.

I'm asking you questions about your assertions. That is discussing things. by the way, you already accused me of lying, or being lazy, or deliberately obtuse. That means you lose any moral right to complain about the quality of our discussion.

I would start with the fact that by Christ our sins are forgiven, all of them, once and for all time. Yesterday's, today's, and tomorrow's.

I addressed this is my previous post. Some people really do not need to be told that their sins - all sins, no matter what or when committed - are instantly forgiven.

Because the Holy Spirit isn't a brute. We see that from the very beginning of Creation. He's not insufficient but when we try to add some qualifier to the work of Christ, some added requirement, He won't get in the way.

How would it constitute "being a brute" to instill the peace of Christ in believers? LOL.


.

What do you mean "where does this leave people..."? Are they saved? Of course, again, for the hundredth time, God is Justice and Mercy.

I meant where does it leave them in terms of having The True Freedom of Christ. You said that you believed the LDS church makes it difficult for people to have that true freedom. Hence, my question.

Whether a person does not grasp correct theology due to being taught incorrect principles or due to insufficient mental capacity to grasp abstract concepts, the end result will be the same. Saved,but no True Freedom of Christ.

These two little addendums tell me all I need to know about how much you really want to know. Which also tells me how much you really do know about Christianity broadly and evangelicalism specifically. But you still seem to think your qualified to dismiss the religion and its adherents. I

Hmm. According to you, feeling The True Freedom of Christ really matters. So people who are saved, but don't have the True Freedom of Christ must have some sort of negative repercussion in their lives.

Does it or doesn't it? You seem to be want to playing it both ways. You object to my question when I differentiate between just being saved and having the True Freedom of Christ, but you're the one who made that distinction in the first place.

[_Hoops]

I'm asking you questions about your assertions. That is discussing things. by the way, you already accused me of lying, or being lazy, or deliberately obtuse.

And provided evidence for it. And you, essentially, agreed.

That means you lose any moral right to complain about the quality of our discussion.

K.

How would it constitute "being a brute" to instill the peace of Christ in believers? LOL.

I told you previously. If a Mormon or anyone else wants to add a bunch of requirements for forgiveness or for qualifying for whatever kingdom, He won't stand in the way.

I meant where does it leave them in terms of having The True Freedom of Christ. You said that you believed the LDS church makes it difficult for people to have that true freedom. Hence, my question.

I'm talking about someone who DENIES or DELETES by addition Christian doctrine. That takes an intellectual process, which Mormonism clearly does. You're adding another element to the equation.

Whether a person does not grasp correct theology due to being taught incorrect principles or due to insufficient mental capacity to grasp abstract concepts, the end result will be the same. Saved,but no True Freedom of Christ.

No, the end result will not be the same.

[_Hoops]

Hmm. According to you, feeling The True Freedom of Christ really matters.

Um...no, you're mistaken AGAIN. I never said anything about "feeling" True Freedom. And to the extent that you are right (which is not at all) it's not me, Jesus seemed to have something to say about being free.

So people who are saved, but don't have the True Freedom of Christ must have some sort of negative repercussion in their lives.

Yes, of course.

Does it or doesn't it? You seem to be want to playing it both ways. You object to my question when I differentiate between just being saved and having the True Freedom of Christ, but you're the one who made that distinction in the first place.

Really? This is not that difficult. I did make the distinction and I stand by it. WE're talking about what Mormonism teaches and how it is harmful. What don't you get?

[_Hoops]

So I couldn’t feel peace as long as the claims of Christianity just didn’t make sense to me, even as I tried to make sense of it.

Not surprising since you don't seem to have any idea what those claims are.

The one thing that brought me peace of mind was atheism. Once I abandoned the need to try to make religion make sense, I felt peace. Once I understood more about human nature, as the result of evolution, I felt more able to accept myself as a flawed human being. That doesn’t mean I stopped trying to improve, but rather that I stopped internally beating myself up for not improving enough.

Like this, for example.

I suspect Hoops has based her conclusion that Mormons have a hard time really feeling The Freedom of Christ is due to the fact that Hoops largely converses with exmormons or questioning Mormons.

As seems to be your habit, you are spectacularly wrong.

So, in an odd way, I agree with Hoops. Intellectual and psychological “self-talk”, based on interpretations of beliefs, can be important in feeling internal peace and contentment. But given varied human needs, there is no one size fits all that will bring about that state.

I disagree with Hoops in that I think that if there were a real God, sending the Spirit to indwell or be a gift to people, then that peace would not be dependent on intellectual and psychological self-talk. It would be a gift from God.

I disagree. I think the last thing God wants is for us to rely on our feelings.

[_beastie]

Whoa! So The True Freedom of Christ isn't even a feeling, or a state of being. It means your sins are forgiven. All sins. No matter when committed.

But isn't that what being saved is? So how can a person be saved and yet not benefit from the True Freedom of Christ?

[_Hoops]

Whoa! So The True Freedom of Christ isn't even a feeling, or a state of being. It means your sins are forgiven. All sins. No matter when committed.

But isn't that what being saved is? So how can a person be saved and yet not benefit from the True Freedom of Christ?

Your ignorance, feigned or otherwise, is tiring. I'll get to it when i get to it.

[_MsJack]

Time is never misspent when you are trying to converse reasonably with people.

It is when you're trying to converse reasonably with unreasonable people.

indeed I haven’t made this personal like you have.

[SNIP]

Its too bad you made this all personal, complaining about Mormons in general and me in particular, for no apparent reason as I see it

Wrong. You were the one who made things personal with your repeated attempts to accuse me of arguing with an agenda against Mormons and intentionally trying to confuse an otherwise simple matter. And your "I know you are, but what am I?" response to my comparison of your posting style with the folks from CARM is even sadder.

For my part, I’m sorry if I offended in anyway

Well, you've got the non-apology apology down, that's for sure.

and I hope we can move forward without any harsh feelings, perhaps even engaging on another topic at some point

Certainly. Next time I feel like engaging someone who clearly lacks the intellectual dexterity to understand anything more complex than "Mormons good! Yay Mormons!" and am in need of someone to make wild paranoid accusations of me all the while intentionally misrepresenting my arguments, you'll be first on my list.