Who has been where I am? Questioning. Where did you end up?

[_The Nehor]

LDS can douche the entire General Leadership by voting all opposed if there be any at the next General Conference. Let the Church run a couple of years without General officers and set up a training center to find raw recruits from inactive ranks only who have not been eating and drinking damnation to their souls for a while. Tell everyone else to be inactive for two years. Then teach them how to get the gospel right. Watch and see if any do. Give them two or three months to try at a Nauvoo House kind of Semenary, then throw them out and bring in more. Eventually you might find a couple, maybe. To a man and whithout exception LDS leadership withal are proven traitors.

Jesus Christ told the Nephites he was just going to start over with a remnant. 3 Ne. 16.

Tell everyone else not to attend Church for 2 years? D&C 46:4

Operate without General Officers? Have you even read the Doctrine and Covenants?

They're all traitors? That's a stiff charge, anything in the way of evidence?

[_mms]

Tell everyone else not to attend Church for 2 years? D&C 46:4

Operate without General Officers? Have you even read the Doctrine and Covenants?

They're all traitors? That's a stiff charge, anything in the way of evidence?

How about PM'ing the "evidence" to Nehor (here's hoping the thread is not totally derailed).

[_James Muir]

LDS can douche the entire General Leadership by voting all opposed if there be any at the next General Conference. Let the Church run a couple of years without General officers and set up a training center to find raw recruits from inactive ranks only who have not been eating and drinking damnation to their souls for a while. Tell everyone else to be inactive for two years. Then teach them how to get the gospel right. Watch and see if any do. Give them two or three months to try at a Nauvoo House kind of Semenary, then throw them out and bring in more. Eventually you might find a couple, maybe. To a man and whithout exception LDS leadership withal are proven traitors.

Jesus Christ told the Nephites he was just going to start over with a remnant. 3 Ne. 16.

Tell everyone else not to attend Church for 2 years? D&C 46:4

Operate without General Officers? Have you even read the Doctrine and Covenants?

They're all traitors? That's a stiff charge, anything in the way of evidence?

the point of being inactive is that they not partake of the sacrament...like is says there in D&C 46:4

In a finer sense the LDS Church has been running without General Officers for about 100 years already. What we got are custodial interlopers at best and demon loving witches at worst. Show me ONE who has proclaimed the real gospel of Jesus Christ in that time and I will show you that you are wrong and take it apart six ways to Sunday.

Yeah, like everything LDS today is evidence. Jesus Christ told the Nephites that anthing more or less than this [the gospel that he just told them] comes of evil. All LDS leaders are forced to teach another gospel today that does not include this one that Christ spoke of. Therefore they are working evil and hindering everyone in the Church from getting it right and stealing all their donations to build up their own empire. If that is not treason to Christ and taking the restoration hostage what would it be? They cannot be excused. They are the man. They are the authority. They have to do right or resign or be chased off for the scoundrels that they are.

Why do you think they make Mormons piss themselves in fear to even consider going against them? It is because they know they are undone and so they cowardly and despotically force people to leave them alone. The LDS Church has what?...three or four universities and not one man who can teach you how to come unto Christ successfully and get the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Not one. They are all guessing and want you to believe it is some mystery. Or that it happens without your notice. It is so much around us we fail to see it. bla bla bla

Christ gave a parable about the treacherous husbandmen who kill the heir. Luke 20:8-19
But this cannot happen? God will not allow it? Nonsense.

[_Roger Morrison]

Tell everyone else not to attend Church for 2 years? D&C 46:4

Operate without General Officers? Have you even read the Doctrine and Covenants?

They're all traitors? That's a stiff charge, anything in the way of evidence?

How about PM'ing the "evidence" to Nehor (here's hoping the thread is not totally derailed). (Bold added)

Hi mms,

It may seem "derailed" but it really isn't. You asked others of their experiences, and, "where...ended?" James is telling you/us, where he was, and why he is where he is. And in fact seems quite purposeful. Whether 'we' like, or agree with, what he says, is irrelevant.

You have received 6 pages of good in-put. Are you wiser, consoled, disappointed, reaffirmed, advancing, withdrawing from your expressed state of wonder; or what? What do You have to say now? Ready to take action? What kind? Warm regards, Roger

[_mms]

It may seem "derailed" but it really isn't. You asked others of their experiences, and, "where...ended?" James is telling you/us, where he was, and why he is where he is. And in fact seems quite purposeful. Whether 'we' like, or agree with, what he says, is irrelevant.

You have received 6 pages of good in-put. Are you wiser, consoled, disappointed, reaffirmed, advancing, withdrawing from your expressed state of wonder; or what? What do You have to say now? Ready to take action? What kind? Warm regards, Roger

I was not concerned about James or anyone else telling of his/her experience, and I certainly appreciate all who have, but if you look at the post I responded to, it specifically asked for evidence of the GA's being "traitors". I think you would have to agree that such a discussion would be more appropriate in another thread. I think you probably knew that and simply felt like arguing your point, for some reason. Regardless, James was succinct in his response and I appreciate that.

What do I have to say, now?

I have been affected by the experiences and the depth of feeling of many commenting, here, in this thread and in the others I have read on this board. I can identify with most, here, to some degree at least and it seems many can identify with me and my current experience. I taught SS again yesterday and was reminded of the impact that my concerns could have on others.

One person to whom I expressed my concern about the Book of Abraham, who is a very close personal friend, spent a week online reading everything and anything to do with the Book of Abraham (he did not know anything about it notwithstanding BIC, RM, BYU, etc.--those at MA&D who continue to claim that everyone knows about this stuff and those of us who didn't were just not paying attention are so far removed from reality, discussing the matter with them is useless). Now this friend is having a bit of a crisis of faith and, of course, I feel a bit guilty having confided my concern in him. On the other hand, part of me thinks that everyone should know about this issue, read all of the sources on it and determine for him/herself with full knowledge how it will or will not affect his/her faith.

So how is my testimony? Well, I guess I could explain it this way: If God was going to come down tonight and tell us if the Church is true, and I had to bet my house on it one way or another (ironic as such a bet would be), I probably would bet against the Church being the only true and living church on the face of the whole earth from an intellectual, fact and reason standpoint. It seems I am discounting the Spirit right now for fear that I have confused (to put it simply) the warm fuzzies with the Spirit of God.

The feeling I have called the "Spirit", candidly, I have felt in situations when I was unworthy, when the thing causing the feeling was unworthy (by far) of spritual confirmation (according to LDS tenets), and when all was right (I was worthy and the thing being taught was worthy according to LDS teachings). I do not recall feeling the Spirit when a principle was being taught to which I could not relate. E.g., someone could be giving a fantastic talk on geneology (if possible), and I would receive no spiritual confirmation of the principles, even though I was worthy and the topic was worthy of spiritual confirmation. Then someone would get up and speak about his experience as a YM president trying to help a struggling young man and I would feel warm all over and the room would almost seem to get brighter as I directly related to the experience. Then someone would talk about temple work and I would feel nothing. Then someone would talk about repentance and I would feel the "Spirit." Nothing ever changed. When I could relate to a principle, it would be confirmed--when I would relate to a good nostalgic rock song, it would be confirmed-when I would relate to a good underdog movie, it would be confirmed--when I could not relate from my own personal experience or when I did not enjoy a certain aspect of the gospel, the stating of truths regarding such aspects would not bring the "Spirit", for me, anyway.

How do I trust this experience in making huge life decisions? I simply ignored the conflict for a long time and made excuses. I cannot do that anymore. I need to find something more concrete. I have asked myself how it can be that someone who is cohabitating, smoking and drinking, etc. can have the missionaries knock on his door, read the Book of Mormon and hear the Joseph Smith story and pray about it and receive a witness sure enough to be baptized three weeks from the day the missionaries knocked on his/her door, and I am having such a struggle determining what a witness of the Spirit really is after decades of service in so many capacities in the Church?

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi MMS, on another of your threads, I said I didn't know your story. I do now. Not unique in any way. You wrote:

Because I am at a place where I think that if I read more, I will only question more, I do not think that "keep researching" is the best answer to the "how to proceed from here" question.

I need to identify (or re-identify) how the "Spirit" witnesses and obtain that witness. If I do not, it looks like the "evidentiary" witness of the "facts" will overcome my tesimony permanently.

So how do I go about identifying or re-identifying the "Spirit"? I suppose the Sunday School answers are relevant here. Pray, read the Standard Works, be more obedient, and listen. Part of me is afraid to do that because I am afraid the answer will be that the church is not true, if I receive an answer at all. As long as I have not drawn concclusions, part of me says, I may still have a testimony. If I go through this process and do not obtain an answer that it is true, I have a problem . . . or do I?

It appears your indoctrination has been long and effective. I respectfully suggest broaden your vision from the little picture of Mormonism to THE big picture of established, institutionalized Christianism that LDSism is part of.

Joseph Smith is simply another reformer and transformer of what has been passed to folks as entry into the great beyond and joy-ever-after with "God" and loved ones. Sounds good to those who have difficulty with "here and now". And, as much cultural as anything we generally simply assimilate, with little question, what we are taught at the family table. Generally speaking. Please don't think I'm suggesting every thing

MMS, you come from the Mormon table. Be aware of the other "family tables": JW, 7DA, RC, and hundreds of others from which many are pushing back their chairs with questions that increasingly stymie the 'head-a-the-family'.

Being taught/conditioned/indoctrinated in the superiority of LDSism, it being THE ONLY TRUTH, you probably miss the fact of its similarity to most other Ecclesiastical persuasions.

LDS mythology has the boy-dreamer enlightened to the reality, "...that all churches are an abomination to "God"..." I suggest, in that Joseph Smith might have got it correct. Then he followed suite and instituted another gathering place for dissidents who pushed back from another table.

I think Jason Bourne put it well with his view of church membership. It isn't all or nothing. It isn't black or white. One size doesn't fit all. Attend, or not, as you enjoy your chosen table.

IF/WHEN a person understands, and accepts, there ain't no "true church" the door of their understanding opens to the freedom of truth! As Jesus the social working teacher taught. There are simply competing churches with the same generally well intended purpose, that CAN--but not always do--serve up good stuff.

Don't sweat the mythos of Christanism's sects. Read about them. Think about them. (Folks for 1,000's of years never had that option.) Then enjoy the fact, "...humanity was not made for religion..." To paraphrase the name sake of the subject/object of our attention. Then do what brings to YOU what YOU want. Oh, be aware, there is no after-life reason for any of this concern, IMSCO... Warm regards, Roger

What a profound post!

[_truth dancer]

Hi MMS...

One person to whom I expressed my concern about the Book of Abraham, who is a very close personal friend, spent a week online reading everything and anything to do with the Book of Abraham (he did not know anything about it notwithstanding BIC, RM, BYU, etc.--those at MA&D who continue to claim that everyone knows about this stuff and those of us who didn't were just not paying attention are so far removed from reality, discussing the matter with them is useless). Now this friend is having a bit of a crisis of faith and, of course, I feel a bit guilty having confided my concern in him.

Isn't it strange that we feel guilty by sharing truth? The Book of Abraham is not what the church claims it is. There is no question about this. Yet the church wants people to hold onto the lie... and we feel guilty if we let others know of this truth.

How twisted is this?

One would think truth would be welcome ... but no, the lies, deception, and pretend stories continue as if they are real, and those who discuss truth and reality are condemned, Xed, or at least told to stop with the non-faith promoting truth.

What kind of God comes up with such a system of belief?

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

It sounds like some of you are willing to help me think through how I should proceed from here, but you probably need a little more information about my actual concerns/conclusions (preliminary or otherwise).

At the moment, it is very difficult for me to believe that I will ever see the "evidence" as weighing in the church's favor on a number of issues. My top five list probably goes something like this:

1) Book of Abraham (missing papyrus theory strikes me as mostly ridiculous (sorry) and catalyst theory makes me assume too much fallibility w/ Joseph Smith for me to conclude he was who I have been taught he was)

2) Polygyny/Polyandry -- No reasons for these practices whatsoever and seems a true "wart of warts" on the history of the church;

3) Book of Mormon anachronisms and other related issues;

4) One true church;

5) Blacks and Priesthood -- always been an issue for me and cannot resolve it.

This is not the thread to debate any of these issues, but I just wanted you to know what sticks out in my mind tongight, could be different tomorrow night, but just in adding issues, not taking away.

Because I am at a place where I think that if I read more, I will only question more, I do not think that "keep researching" is the best answer to the "how to proceed from here" question.

I need to identify (or re-identify) how the "Spirit" witnesses and obtain that witness. If I do not, it looks like the "evidentiary" witness of the "facts" will overcome my tesimony permanently.

So how do I go about identifying or re-identifying the "Spirit"? I suppose the Sunday School answers are relevant here. Pray, read the Standard Works, be more obedient, and listen. Part of me is afraid to do that because I am afraid the answer will be that the church is not true, if I receive an answer at all. As long as I have not drawn concclusions, part of me says, I may still have a testimony. If I go through this process and do not obtain an answer that it is true, I have a problem . . . or do I?

I do wish you well on your test of faith and spiritual journey.

For what it is worth, I have found the following to be of help to me when my faith has been challenged:

1. Put the faith-trial and decisionmaking process into context. In effect, figure out what all the purposes, intents, functions, role, and value the Church is or might be in my life and the life of my family.
2. Within that context, fairly weigh all factors about the Church in the balance. In other words, create a mental list of what I may find right and workable about the Church (faith promoting) as well as what I find troubling and wrong (faith troubling), and weigh them against each other.
3. Within that same context, direct my evaluations internally as well as externally--focusing as much if not more on my own internal rightness and wrongness, as well as the same regarding the Church.
4. Make the decisionmaking processes about choicing the best of multiple viable options, rather than about simply negating a single existing option. In other words, comparatively evaluate the Church in relation to other proven developmental systems (secular and religious) in effort to determine which individually or in combination will enable me and my family to become the very best people possible--in terms of happiness, love, understanding (both physically and spiritually), respect, ability, and being responsible and mature

In other words, I put the trial of my faith in the mix of my whole life's journey, and evaluate it in terms of the destination I have chosen for myself. Metaphorically speaking, if I have some doubts about a specific aspect of a complex navigational devise (such as the Church), I look at the importance and meaning of that specific aspect in relation to the entirely of the complex navigation devise and other navigational options (such as other religious and secular institutions), so as to avoid unwittingly jettisoning a viable navigational devise and finding myself without direction and tossed to and fro by the winds, waves, and currents of public opinion.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I am not an apologist.

You certainly try to be, however.

I lack sufficient expertise to defend the church on any topic.

Painfully obvious.

I am a jury trial lawyer.

Wow. We're so impressed.

Internet posting is filled with the dishonest and the cowardly, along with the honest and courageous. For every Tal Bachman, Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalf, and Kevin Graham who are unafraid of using their own names when posting, we have you, Jason Osbourne, MMS, Mr. Scratch and Rollo Tomasi.

One-note Bob strikes again.

What I do is tack my name on my claims ....

Sure ya do, Plutarch.

[_Yoda]

Internet posting is filled with the dishonest and the cowardly, along with the honest and courageous. For every Tal Bachman, Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalf, and Kevin Graham who are unafraid of using their own names when posting, we have you, Jason Osbourne, MMS, Mr. Scratch and Rollo Tomasi.

Um, Bob?

Just so you know...Kevin Graham is a pseudonym. He has spoken about it many times on his own site.

;)