FAIR Journal - Message from Gordy

[_charity]

Sure she does. She has just temporarily suspended the notion.

Unless you meant to say that there are members of the Church of the devil among those who are officially LDS.

I think there probably are. There are some people who are apostate and operating under the radar. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

Now let's wait for charity to come in and say something to the effect of "That's not what I said".

I said exactly that, and I meant it. You probably didn't read my post just a few earlier in those topioc. Cross posting.

It isn't the level of activity, or inactivity that is the determining issue. It is the "trying to destroy another person's faith" that determines what makes a wolf. Look at what "a wolf in sheep's clohting" means. The wolf put on a sheep's fleece so he could sneak into the flock and more easily kill the trusting sheep who had accepted him into the flock. The wolf is deliberately planning to kill sheep. He gains access to a lot of sheep by pretending to be one of them. Those are all deceitful, willful actions.

Simply being a member with a less than firm testimony, or even no testimony at all, doesn't put one in that situation. Intent, people, INTENT.

[_charity]

The assessment is wrong and, frankly, insulting. If it makes you guys feel better to say that we leave out of pettiness or ignorance, that's fine. What I am saying is that if you really want to help people like me stay in the church, smug dismissals of our very real experiences are not going to help.

I don't think the word pettiness came up at all. If you mean people begin to question or doubt over small things, I would agree with that. I know that FAIRites don't engage in smug dismissals. We take doubting very seriously. That is the whole purpose of FAIR. I just finished proof reading a manuscript for a book that deals with the subject of why people leave the Church. It is a serious subject. No one is trying to minimize anyone's real experience.

We are trying to understand. And it makes it difficult when, as is the nature of the psychology of human beings, many people do not correctly understand their own motivations.

[_guy sajer]

We are trying to understand. And it makes it difficult when, as is the nature of the psychology of human beings, many people do not correctly understand their own motivations.

Charity just can't help herself. On one hand, she says that she is trying to understand us apostates. With the very next sentence she insuluts us by stating that we don't understand our own emotions.

I'm sorry, Charity, I don't believe you. Everything else you say, and the way in which you say it, belies any claim that you want to understand. Nor do you give even the tiniest scintilla of evidence that you understand. It is amazing to me that someone can spend so much time associating with apostates and still fail to come away with any understanding of them. I conclude that either you can't or you don't want to understand, or both.

[_Runtu]

I don't think the word pettiness came up at all. If you mean people begin to question or doubt over small things, I would agree with that.

Questioning is a good thing, don't you think? If you unquestioningly accept everything you hear, that's not faith. But I disagree that people leave over small things. If you reread Scott's piece, he said we leave over one or two small issues. That's simply wrong.

I know that FAIRites don't engage in smug dismissals.

I'm going to give you an opportunity to retract this because we both have been around long enough to know that this isn't true at all.

We take doubting very seriously. That is the whole purpose of FAIR. I just finished proof reading a manuscript for a book that deals with the subject of why people leave the Church. It is a serious subject. No one is trying to minimize anyone's real experience.

Please don't insult both of our intellects. How many times have we heard the mantra that those who are questioning are merely trolls who want to argue? How many times have we heard that there are no legitimate reasons for leaving the church? How many times have we (including myself personally) been accused of "wanting" to leave or harboring secret sins? How is that not minimizing our experience?

We are trying to understand. And it makes it difficult when, as is the nature of the psychology of human beings, many people do not correctly understand their own motivations.

I understand my own motivations. I wouldn't presume to tell you what yours are, but I've had many apologists try to tell me what mine are. They are simply wrong.

[_Yoda]

I would really like to hear Charity's response to Runtu here.

[_charity]

I'm going to give you an opportunity to retract this because we both have been around long enough to know that this isn't true at all.

I think you don't spend a lot of time with FAIRites. Most of the posters on MA&D are not members of FAIR. I happen to be now, but I posted for quite a while on the FAIR message board and now MA&D without being a member. And still, even after I joined I spent quite a while as a fairly passive member before I joined the e-list and started actually participating in FAIR activities.

I know what these individuals talk about about the issue of people leaving the Church. They don't smugly dismiss anyone's reasons.

Please don't insult both of our intellects. How many times have we heard the mantra that those who are questioning are merely trolls who want to argue? How many times have we heard that there are no legitimate reasons for leaving the church? How many times have we (including myself personally) been accused of "wanting" to leave or harboring secret sins? How is that not minimizing our experience?

You don't get that from FAIRites. Let's take these one at a time.

Trolls: Some people present themselves as less than sincere questioners, whether they are or not, I suppose. A question, "Is it really true that Joseph Smith had a lot of wives?" is going to get an answer. A person who asks "So how come that lying con man you brainwashed Mormons call a prophet had sex with a lot of women?" is going to be identified as a troll. There is no honest seeker in that question.

I have frequently quoted Terryl Givens: "There is evidence enough on both sides to lead a life of credible belief or dismissive denial." Evidence on BOTH sides. Where is the "no legitimate reasons for leaving" in that?

You haven't been accused of secret sins by any FAIRite.

I don't doubt that you have heard all those things. I don't doubt there are people who will think that every person who leaves the Church did so because of sin. And there are people who think that there are no legitimate questions to ask. Just don't say that FAIRites engage in this kind of thinking or talking.

We are trying to understand. And it makes it difficult when, as is the nature of the psychology of human beings, many people do not correctly understand their own motivations.

I understand my own motivations. I wouldn't presume to tell you what yours are, but I've had many apologists try to tell me what mine are. They are simply wrong.

[Guest]

I'm going to give you an opportunity to retract this because we both have been around long enough to know that this isn't true at all.

I think you don't spend a lot of time with FAIRites. Most of the posters on MA&D are not members of FAIR. I happen to be now, but I posted for quite a while on the FAIR message board and now MA&D without being a member. And still, even after I joined I spent quite a while as a fairly passive member before I joined the e-list and started actually participating in FAIR activities.

I know what these individuals talk about about the issue of people leaving the Church. They don't smugly dismiss anyone's reasons.

Please don't insult both of our intellects. How many times have we heard the mantra that those who are questioning are merely trolls who want to argue? How many times have we heard that there are no legitimate reasons for leaving the church? How many times have we (including myself personally) been accused of "wanting" to leave or harboring secret sins? How is that not minimizing our experience?

You don't get that from FAIRites. Let's take these one at a time.

Trolls: Some people present themselves as less than sincere questioners, whether they are or not, I suppose. A question, "Is it really true that Joseph Smith had a lot of wives?" is going to get an answer. A person who asks "So how come that lying con man you brainwashed Mormons call a prophet had sex with a lot of women?" is going to be identified as a troll. There is no honest seeker in that question.

I have frequently quoted Terryl Givens: "There is evidence enough on both sides to lead a life of credible belief or dismissive denial." Evidence on BOTH sides. Where is the "no legitimate reasons for leaving" in that?

You haven't been accused of secret sins by any FAIRite.

I don't doubt that you have heard all those things. I don't doubt there are people who will think that every person who leaves the Church did so because of sin. And there are people who think that there are no legitimate questions to ask. Just don't say that FAIRites engage in this kind of thinking or talking.

We are trying to understand. And it makes it difficult when, as is the nature of the psychology of human beings, many people do not correctly understand their own motivations.

I understand my own motivations. I wouldn't presume to tell you what yours are, but I've had many apologists try to tell me what mine are. They are simply wrong.

They might be. But they might be right and you are wrong. Are you familiar with the Johari Window? This is a little 4 x 4 which would be easier to display with a graphic but here goes. It talks about information and how it is known and not known.

There is information you know about yourself and that others know, too.
There is information you know about yourself that nobody else knows.
There is information you don't know about yourself but others do.
There is information you don't know about yourself and neither does anyone else.

According to this model, you are only right about your own self half the time. And others are right about you half the time. I don't know your motivations for leaving the Church. But you should at least admit that maybe you don't know them fully, either.

[_Yoda]

I think you don't spend a lot of time with FAIRites. Most of the posters on MA&D are not members of FAIR. I happen to be now, but I posted for quite a while on the FAIR message board and now MA&D without being a member. And still, even after I joined I spent quite a while as a fairly passive member before I joined the e-list and started actually participating in FAIR activities.

I know what these individuals talk about about the issue of people leaving the Church. They don't smugly dismiss anyone's reasons.

This is an interesting point. It's one of the reasons I'm glad that FAIR and the FAIR Message Board parted ways.

Have you ever spoken with any of the more caustic folks on MAD and mentioned that the attitude portrayed typically there is completely counter to FAIR's purpose?

It might not make a difference, but who knows?

[_Zoidberg]

I know that FAIRites don't engage in smug dismissals.

FAIR FAQ:

The Church is busy trying to bring people to Jesus Christ. It doesn't need to use its time and resources responding to every crackpot and yahoo that brings up an old rehashed anti-Mormon argument.

http://www.fairlds.org/faq.html

[_Runtu]

I think you don't spend a lot of time with FAIRites. Most of the posters on MA&D are not members of FAIR. I happen to be now, but I posted for quite a while on the FAIR message board and now MA&D without being a member. And still, even after I joined I spent quite a while as a fairly passive member before I joined the e-list and started actually participating in FAIR activities.

I know what these individuals talk about about the issue of people leaving the Church. They don't smugly dismiss anyone's reasons.[/b]

I beg to differ.

You haven't been accused of secret sins by any FAIRite.

Yes, I have.

I don't doubt that you have heard all those things. I don't doubt there are people who will think that every person who leaves the Church did so because of sin. And there are people who think that there are no legitimate questions to ask. Just don't say that FAIRites engage in this kind of thinking or talking.

I'm sorry, but I have experienced it firsthand.