Joseph Smith: Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

[_Zoidberg]

Zoidberg siad, "What possible probitive value does it have in evaluating the validity of his evidence? Again, ad hominem is a fallacy for a reason

Actually, Runtu said it.

He has also made most of the points I would raise in his reply, I'll just add a few more thoughts:

I'm not being inconsistent about tapirs. Since my paradigm does not include the Book of Mormon being true, I have no need to try to reconcile it with reality. Hence, if there is no evidence of horses living on the continent roughly 2,000 years ago, I'm assuming there weren't any there until further notice, which is the most reasonable thing to do. I do not flat out reject the tapir idea, even though it seems to me a long stretch and an unnecessary assumption. Since I think that Joseph Smith made it all up, and yet it seems that he believed in his own chosen status, a personality disorder would explain it nicely. On the other hand, you "know" the truth; you probably allow the possibility that Joseph Smith had a personality disorder while simultaneously being a prophet, but it's an unnecessary assumption for you.

It all depends on the paradigm. No double standard there. I'm sure you find the idea that Joseph Smith was a narcissist much less plausible than that tapirs could be used instead of horses.

As for truth by consensus, Runtu has already talked about that; obviously it applies to larger groups of people than this board. For instance, my line of reasoning why I think the church is more likely to be a fraud than true is based on Occam's razor. If one doesn't agree with Occam's razor as a valid principle, my reasoning would not make sense to them. Eventually it all boils down to a set of fundamental assumptions which all participants in a discussion must agree on in order to be able to understand each other. It does not necessarily mean they are correct, and these assumptions may change in the future, which is why I think that facts are fluid. Technically, we shouldn't even state anything as a fact, but what kind of a life would that be?

As per your worries about non-sophisticated readers, can't they just google the book, as you suggested investigators of the Church do, instead of simply relying on what is presented to them by the missionaries and the Book of Mormon? Talk about double standards.

[_Trevor]

I diagnosed him with diabetes.

Good work. I knew it!

[_Trevor]

What a strange way to look at Joseph Smith. Strictly speaking, the above is quite wrong. What we have is the sum total of every witness to what Joseph Smith did and said. And we create a "version" (your word) by how we interpret that totality of evidence. Trying to squeeze a complicated and often contradictory life into "pro" and "con" versions seems rather self-serving.

Couldn't agree more, Runtu. Well said.

[_ktallamigo]

Anyone out there read "Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith" by Robert D. Anderson?

I have. It's a great book.

Joseph Smith is an enigma to me.

At times selfless and generous; at other times incredibly self-absorbed.
Humble, yet boasting.
Religious yet concerned about the things of the world.
A loving husband, yet a secretive serial polygamist.

Much of this is explained quite neatly under the narcissistic personality disorder paradigm (heh). The "good" Joseph would manifest around people who were in his good graces; the "bad" Joseph would manifest when in the presence of people he found valueless.

I will read the book.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question.

ktall

[_moksha]

I have mixed feelings about whether or not he could be considered a full-blown narcissist. I don't mean to nit-pick, but to me, a full blown narcissist is literally incapable of seeing other human beings as "real", as having feelings and needs to be respected. Other people are just things to be manipulated, and often full blown narcissist will be violent within his/her family.

I have never met anyone with a narcissistic diagnosis who could even remotely be capable of being a charismatic leader. On the other hand, someone with hypomania would be an energetic and entertaining leader. In the hypomanic state their thinking is not only lucid, but somewhat enhanced albeit tending toward the grandiose and hypersexual. Their flow of creative ideas would be enhanced as well. They would even get a big kick out of stick-pull wrestling.

[_DonBradley]

Yes.

[_guy sajer]

So, tell us Charity, precisely what specifically are your credentials in psychology that you seem to enjoy touting so much?

I'm skeptical about your claims to expertise.

Studying something in an undergraduate program decades ago (if this is the case) hardly makes one an expert. I know hundreds of Econ undergrads, for example, and I can tell you that not a single one of them can credibly be called an economist or claim any particular "expertise" in economics.

So, what of it?

I have a master's degree in psychology from Portland State University. I got my bachelor's degree in psych in 1962 from BYU. Stayed home and raised 6 children. Went back to graduate school in 1988, got the master's degree in 1991, and taught psychology in a community college until I retired in 2003. My master's thesis was in the area of behavioral psychology.

Thanks, liz. In the community college system we didn't have any kind of professor rankings. I was an instructor. I taught general psych, human sexuality, and developmental psych. I also taught some psych courses in the criminal justice program at times. Those were more in the field of abnormal psych.

Ok, thanks. Not bad at all. I admire people who go back to school later in life--it strikes me as a difficult thing to do.

I hereby renounce my skepticism and annoint you resident "expert."

Now, about that dream I've been having about my mother . . . . .

[_truth dancer]

Hey Mok...

I have never met anyone with a narcissistic diagnosis who could even remotely be capable of being a charismatic leader. On the other hand, someone with hypomania would be an energetic and entertaining leader. In the hypomanic state their thinking is not only lucid, but somewhat enhanced albeit tending toward the grandiose and hypersexual. Their flow of creative ideas would be enhanced as well. They would even get a big kick out of stick-pull wrestling.

I agree with you on this.

Narcissism is really about a very low self-esteem.

I think Joseph Smith was convinced of his specialness.

Have you ever met anyone with Delusion disorder, grandiose type?

One woman in particular I know reminds me so much of Joseph Smith I wonder if she was he in a past life. (smile)

"Individuals with grandiose delusional disorder have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Their delusions center on their own importance, such as believing that they have done or created something of extreme value or have a "special mission."

~dancer~

[_charity]

Now, about that dream I've been having about my mother . . . . .

We cognitive behaviorists tend to think a lot of Freud was a crock. Sorry for being so technical.

[_DonBradley]

"Crock" is much too technical a word for the Terrestrial Forum. Mods, please move this post to the CK.

Don