Utah rape stats

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

No, a woman is not raped unless she considers she has been. No one can define anyone else's experience. "You were raped. "No, I wasn't." "Oh, yes, you were." What kind of stupid discussion would that be?


I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

In cultures where women are totally devalued, where they have little to no legal rights, little to no recourse to medical help, women may just give in to forced sexual advances rather than fight. It's no use to fight. It's easier to just give in. In your opinion, these women cannot be raped. Am I correct? I keep asking this because it boggles the mind that this is what you're actually saying.

These women did not invite or welcome the sexual contact. It was forced upon them. They did not consent in any way other than to simply not fight. In your opinion, they were not raped.

You mean equal pay and the civil rights act? Now who is joking?


Please refer to moniker's post above, or maybe bother to read the link I provided. We're talking about the right to vote, the right to own property as a married woman, the right to have custody of one's children, etc.

Are you truly unaware that these were rights only granted to women in the last century?


Don't you think groundwork would have been preferable before the accusation that the Church fosters ideas which contribute to the rape of women? Talk about a cart before the horse!


How can we even discuss why Utah has a higher than average rape incidence without exploring the possible impact of LDS culture and ideas?

I stated from the beginning that I was looking for input, and speculating. You want an entirely formed thesis.

I won't ever agree that any analysis which puts the Church in the same league with other "extremely" religious areas is going to provide anything useful.


Why in the world NOT? "Extremely" religious is another continuum, by the way.

Beastie wasn't there something said in a previous post that you had training in sociology or psychology or some other relevant field?


No.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Re: Utah rape stats

Post by _Coggins7 »

charity wrote:
beastie wrote:Someone brought this to my attention, and I was wondering if anyone has more information.

http://www.mazeministry.com/Mormonism/s ... s/rape.htm

Rape Crime in Utah Well Above National Average

A federal report shows that one in five adult women in Utah—or a total of 157,000 women in the state—has been forcibly raped at least once in her lifetime. The report comes from the South Carolina-based National Violence Against Women Prevention Research Center, giving Utah the top spot in the continental United States for its estimated percentage of rape victims. "Our findings clearly demonstrate the fact that Utah has a substantial rape problem," said the report from the research group, which was established and is partly funded by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

"I was shocked to see this," said Jamee Roberts, executive director of the Salt Lake City-based Rape Recovery Center. "I knew we were bad; I had no idea we were this bad. We should be hanging our heads in shame." She added that the numbers are reliable and can be trusted. Only Alaska (20.9% of its women raped versus 20.6% in Utah compared to 13.4% of all women nationally) has a higher rate in the United States. The estimates are said to be conservative because they do not include the cases of women who have experienced attempted rape; rapes where the women were unconscious or impaired by drugs or alcohol; or statutory rape where there was no force. (Salt Lake Tribune, 7/12/03)


I found this as well:

http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/archive/m ... _rape.html

In the year 2000, Utah's rape rate increased by 4 percent.

Utah has a rape rate about 15 percent higher than the national rate. (To link to the Utah state government web page comparing national rape statistics with Utah's from 1980-2000, click here.)


This article mentions people questioning the stat:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n11412284

My gut instinct is, if this is true and Utah has a higher rate of rape, it's because of patriarchy and extreme sexual suppression, which sometimes creates harmful fetishes.


You need less biased, more recent stats, evidently.

See this link for stats as of Dec 2006

http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/16863 ... commit=%3E

Utah is 17th. And of course, looking at the states which have a higher incidence of rape, there are bastions of liberality which would refute your patriarchy theory.

Beastie, it is really difficult coming up with causations based merely on correlations.

1. You have decided that a stat coming from Utah will necessarily have a religious background. (Patriarchy.)
2. You assume, without basis, that sexual suppression is rampant in Utah. I haven't seen any proof of that.

Analyzing sociological information is what I studied. Your analysis really is off the mark, here.




Oh, and one more point: I really cannot believe that anyone still actually reads Ms magazine. I mean, in this day and age...

Beastie is going to have a hard road to hoe in demonstrating why, up until the middle sixties and beyond, rates of violent crime, including rape, were far lower than they are today, while society in general was much more male oriented than it is today as far as family life and gender roles.

I don't think patriarchy is the cause as such crimes weren't nearly as prevalent in the first five or six decades of the twentieth century. If you want the real causal factors involved in the present multidecadal rash of increasing violence against woman, including date rape and spousal abuse, you'd be well advised to talk to Hugh Hefner, not GBH.

It has been the objectification of woman and the trivialization and desacralization of human sexuality that forms the root system that holds up the present tree of increased male animosity towards the feminine.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: Utah rape stats

Post by _asbestosman »

Coggins7 wrote:Beastie is going to have a hard road to hoe in demonstrating why, up until the middle sixties and beyond, rates of violent crime, including rape, were far lower than they are today, while society in general was much more male oriented than it is today as far as family life and gender roles.

I don't think patriarchy is the cause as such crimes weren't nearly as prevalent in the first five or six decades of the twentieth century. If you want the real causal factors involved in the present multidecadal rash of increasing violence against woman, including date rape and spousal abuse, you'd be well advised to talk to Hugh Hefner, not GBH.

It has been the objectification of woman and the trivialization and desacralization of human sexuality that forms the root system that holds up the present tree of increased male animosity towards the feminine.


What can I say. I'm not convinced by this assertion either, but I suppose it's as good as Beastie's until I see better evidence supporting her assertion over Coggins's.

Of course, I think end result is that most of us actually believe that many factors contribute to rape rates. From that one might suppose that many factors come into play for Utah. I would suspect that even if patriarchy contributes that it would not be sufficient to explain Utah's situation.

By the way, anyone have rape stats for Hilldale, UT (and I don't mean statutory since it wasn't included with the other ones)?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Re: Utah rape stats

Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:
I don't think patriarchy is the cause as such crimes weren't nearly as prevalent in the first five or six decades of the twentieth century. If you want the real causal factors involved in the present multidecadal rash of increasing violence against woman, including date rape and spousal abuse, you'd be well advised to talk to Hugh Hefner, not GBH.

It has been the objectification of woman and the trivialization and desacralization of human sexuality that forms the root system that holds up the present tree of increased male animosity towards the feminine.


Statistics on rape DECREASE since 1973 from the United States Department of Justice:

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: Utah rape stats

Post by _asbestosman »

Moniker wrote:Statistics on rape DECREASE since 1973 from the United States Department of Justice:

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm


Dang, there's that actual support of assertions thing again . . .
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_charity
_Emeritus
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

In cultures where women are totally devalued, where they have little to no legal rights, little to no recourse to medical help, women may just give in to forced sexual advances rather than fight. It's no use to fight. It's easier to just give in. In your opinion, these women cannot be raped. Am I correct? I keep asking this because it boggles the mind that this is what you're actually saying.

These women did not invite or welcome the sexual contact. It was forced upon them. They did not consent in any way other than to simply not fight. In your opinion, they were not raped.


A woman is not raped unless she considers she has been
. Now do you understand what I am saying? Women acquiese to sexual intercourse for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with a mutually satisfying experience.

beastie wrote:
You mean equal pay and the civil rights act? Now who is joking?


Please refer to moniker's post above, or maybe bother to read the link I provided. We're talking about the right to vote, the right to own property as a married woman, the right to have custody of one's children, etc.

Are you truly unaware that these were rights only granted to women in the last century?


I read the link. I just don't see this as meaning we no longer have a society which isn't essentiallly patriarchal. There have been moves away from the end, but no longer patriarchal? No.

beastie wrote:
Don't you think groundwork would have been preferable before the accusation that the Church fosters ideas which contribute to the rape of women? Talk about a cart before the horse!


How can we even discuss why Utah has a higher than average rape incidence without exploring the possible impact of LDS culture and ideas?

I stated from the beginning that I was looking for input, and speculating. You want an entirely formed thesis.


You can't establish anything without looking at the "average" incidence. Who is being raped? Who are the rapists?

For instance, the incidence of deaths by gunshot is higher than the average among black men in the late teens-early twenties. So, if you ask the question "Why is it that black men are shot at a rate higher than average in the United States which is predominantly white?" you really need to know that the majority of shooters of young black men are other young black men.

So, instead of blatting out a meaningless statistic you want to smear the Church with, get informaton first.


beastie wrote:
I won't ever agree that any analysis which puts the Church in the same league with other "extremely" religious areas is going to provide anything useful.


Why in the world NOT? "Extremely" religious is another continuum, by the way.


Because there is "extremely" religious and then there is "devout" and never the twain shall meet.

beastie wrote:
Beastie wasn't there something said in a previous post that you had training in sociology or psychology or some other relevant field?


No.


Well, then maybe I should cut you a little slack. If you don't know how to deal with sociological reports, then you can't be blamed as much.
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Moniker wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
I don't think patriarchy is the cause as such crimes weren't nearly as prevalent in the first five or six decades of the twentieth century. If you want the real causal factors involved in the present multidecadal rash of increasing violence against woman, including date rape and spousal abuse, you'd be well advised to talk to Hugh Hefner, not GBH.

It has been the objectification of woman and the trivialization and desacralization of human sexuality that forms the root system that holds up the present tree of increased male animosity towards the feminine.


Statistics on rape DECREASE since 1973 from the United States Department of Justice:

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm



This is interesting because this is the very manner in which liberals have justified the existence Old Testament AGW-by conveniently picking the time window within which statistical data are analyzed.

The problem is that the U.S. FBI Index of Crime indicates a 418 percent increase in "forcible rape" from 1960 to 1999.

Further, DOJ data does not include children under 12, so the decrease could be less than the data suggest. Go here for a look at the general trend in crime since 1960:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Here's the rate for my present home state:

http://www.clemson.edu/fyd/Assets/Adobe ... _rates.pdf

If you will take a look at Moniker's stats, you will see that not only is the massive rise in rape (along with other violent crime) since the middle sixties missing, but forcible rape doesn't actually peak and begin coming down consistently until 1991 with some dips and peaks before that time, but only going below 2.2 after 1991.

But yet again, the DOJ data doesn't agree with FBI crime index data from 1983, which show a corresponding decrease beginning at roughly the same time, but show a discernible rise coming out of the seventies:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/02cius.htm

As you will notice, the rate starts at 78,918, and peaks, in 1993, at 106,014.

What decrease in rape? Yes, its there, but nobody under 12 is included in the stats, the really huge overall rise in rape, following the general pandemic of crime since about 1964 generally, is not included, and no imposition of an artificial ideological schema upon this data is going to make a case against the Church, which, if anything any violation of females as among the most serious of sins and crimes as a matter of its theology.

Moniker is masking the some 490% rise in over all violent crime since the middle sixties, and a slightly lower rise in forcible rape during the same time period, by using a snapshot of a smaller time frame. Also, the DOJ data are skewed by the absence of females under the age of 12, and are not in harmony with the national FBI crime index data for the same time period, which shows increases where the DOJ data shows something like stasis or even decreases.

In any case, whichever data is more accurate, ascribing Utah rates to ideological and generational bogymen like "patriarchy" and "sexual repression"--a sexual revolution foil for its philosophy of pansexual hedonism--is little short of inane.

Colossal increases of rape rates of the kind that have been documented since the FBI began its uniform crime index in 1960, can hardly be explained by appeals to feminist shibboleths which, in all likelihood, have as much to do with that very increase as anything (such as the decoupling of sex from both romantic love and the domestic commitments of family and child rearing).

I love libs...their so silly.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:

This is interesting because this is the very manner in which liberals have justified the existence Old Testament AGW-by conveniently picking the time window within which statistical data are analyzed.


Coggins, who picked the time window? Not me. The United States Department of Justice picked that time window. I just found the statistics and posted them. I thought it was relevant. I actually was surprised at the trend it showed because I assumed with more advocacy and support for victims that more women would report rapes now as to 40 years ago. It is well known (I'll be happy to provide a reference if necessary) that rape is underreported.

The problem is that the U.S. FBI Index of Crime indicates a 418 percent increase in "forcible rape" from 1960 to 1999.


Where?

Further, DOJ data does not include children under 12, so the decrease could be less than the data suggest. Go here for a look at the general trend in crime since 1960:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


It is interesting to note that the last years statistics hover about the same rate as 30 years ago according to your data. Is this your proof that as the years progress (women's lib, pornography, etc...) correlates to higher incidence of rape? It doesn't hold.


If you will take a look at Moniker's stats, you will see that not only is the massive rise in rape (along with other violent crime) since the middle sixties missing, but forcible rape doesn't actually peak and begin coming down consistently until 1991 with some dips and peaks before that time, but only going below 2.2 after 1991.


Those are not my stats. It is the United States Department of Justice stats (and I'm going to let you in on a lil factoid about where they get their stats in just a moment -- is the suspense killing you?).

But yet again, the DOJ data doesn't agree with FBI crime index data from 1983, which show a corresponding decrease beginning at roughly the same time, but show a discernible rise coming out of the seventies:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/02cius.htm



I didn't see a spreadsheet of crime. Please link again.

The FBI is the investigative arm of the Department of Justice. Yes, indeed, they report directly to the Department of Justice. Isn't that interesting Coggins? The FBI is an agency that works under the domain of the DOJ.

Moniker is masking the some 490% rise in over all violent crime since the middle sixties, and a slightly lower rise in forcible rape during the same time period, by using a snapshot of a smaller time frame. Also, the DOJ data are skewed by the absence of females under the age of 12, and are not in harmony with the national FBI crime index data for the same time period, which shows increases where the DOJ data shows something like stasis or even decreases.


I am masking nothing. I posted data, just as you did.


I love libs...their so silly.


I just love people that assume I'm a liberal. They're so presumptuous.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

From Coggins link here's Utah's breakdown of rape by year:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/utcrime.htm
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

A woman is not raped unless she considers she has been. Now do you understand what I am saying? Women acquiese to sexual intercourse for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with a mutually satisfying experience.


How women view their experiences is dependent upon their culture, and whether or not they view themselves as having the right to “own” their own bodies.

In regards to women “acquiescing” to sexual intercourse for a lot of reasons:

A. Woman acquiesces to have sex despite the fact that she doesn’t enjoy it to appease her husband.
B. Woman acquiesces to have sex with a stranger because if she protests and makes noise, people will find out about it. The man may end up punished, which would please her, but her punishment, as damaged goods, will be far worst, in addition to the possible punishment for doing something that “asked for it”, in her culture – you know, like leaving the house alone.

As I have already stated, these events are worlds apart, and to conflate the two in anyway is counter-productive. When you continually remind us that women have sex for many reasons, you are conflating the two. You can't really view A and B as equivalent, or do you?

I read the link. I just don't see this as meaning we no longer have a society which isn't essentiallly patriarchal. There have been moves away from the end, but no longer patriarchal? No.


Once again, I’m left wondering if you even read posts you respond to. I suspect you read the first couple of sentences and that’s it.

Here’s what I actually said:
Eighty years ago this would have been an accurate statement, but it is not any longer. While women lag behind men due to social habits, our legal system is no longer based on patriarchy.

The Mormon church has institutionalized patriarchy.

Patriarchy, of course, manifests itself on a continuum, which you, yourself, conceded by referring to "extreme patriarchal societies". You know, the ones where women can't be raped.


Notice the bolded phrase – the one Charity either didn’t bother to read or ignored.

This is why discussing anything with Charity is maddening. You have to spend pages establishing the most basic, obvious, points.

You can't establish anything without looking at the "average" incidence. Who is being raped? Who are the rapists?

For instance, the incidence of deaths by gunshot is higher than the average among black men in the late teens-early twenties. So, if you ask the question "Why is it that black men are shot at a rate higher than average in the United States which is predominantly white?" you really need to know that the majority of shooters of young black men are other young black men.


And where, pray tell, am I supposed to find that sort of detailed information about rape? I would definitely be interested in it.

Because there is "extremely" religious and then there is "devout" and never the twain shall meet.


What the heck? Do you have some secret definition of “extremely religious” to which the rest of us aren’t privy?

Well, then maybe I should cut you a little slack. If you don't know how to deal with sociological reports, then you can't be blamed as much.


I do expect more from you, since you have training in sociology and psychology. It disgusts me that someone who has been trained in these fields would make some of the statements you make. For example:

Scenario – Woman walks to a nearby market at dusk alone. A strange man pulls her off the path into some bushes or another hidden area, and has sex with her. He does not ask her permission, is not interested in her permission.

If this scenario took place in the US, the woman would likely label this rape and report it to the police. She would be able to have access to medical care and legal support. It is true that in the US many women would prefer to keep the event secret to avoid being viewed as tainted, or avoid being accused of making the whole thing up and having questionable morals, but generally women at least view this as an option.

If this scenario took place in a repressive patriarchal society, the woman would likely just say nothing about it. She would not have access to medical care or legal support, anyway. If she called “rape” and sought help, the man may well be punished, but she would run the risk of being stoned or lashed herself. In addition, she would be damaged goods with no hope of a decent future.

According to Charity, the exact same act is rape when it occurs in the US, and not rape when it occurs in the repressive patriarchal society that has stripped women of rights.
Last edited by Tator on Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Post Reply