Utah rape stats

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_charity
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Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:
Men in extreme patriarchal societies view women as possessions, and other men may violate women in order to violate the possession of the male. You can pretend this isn't so as much as you want, but the history of the world has made this abundantly clear.


Yes they do. And they do it in liberal cultures, too. But you have to look at the data. How often, and how often compared to other motivational factors. For Pete's sake, you don't seem to know anything about statistical analysis of data. I am getting really tired of this.

If you don't have data that shows the Mormon theology has anything to do with rape in Utah, I am done with this discussion. I have repeatedly called for data. There obviously isn't any. So, I am leaving.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

charity wrote:
Moniker wrote:I, at times, just don't even know what the point is you're trying to make Charity? No doubt, there is sexual behavior that is harmful, destructive, and ill advised. The subject (that you're trying to divert from) is rape.



Moniker, this whole discussion we have been having is about consent. I am trying to nail you down on what you consider consent. You haven't told me yet. A woman who is drunk doesn't give consent. But a woman who is neurotic and looking for love and intimacy who is only sexually used by men taking advantage of that need, is not. I am trying to get a consistent applicaiton of your idea of consent.

I am getting tired of trying. One more time. Give me a good defintion of consent, that you are consistently going to apply. Otherwise, I am done with the "consent" issue. Your foray off into depression and plural marriage is really biazrre.


Charity, consent is when a woman desires sexual intercourse. I posted a definition about 3-4 pages back and that is my definition of consent. It always has been and hasn't altered. You apparently have different definitions of consent. YOU suggest that a woman suffering from low-self esteem or depression and seeks love by having sex is not capable of consent -- THAT IS BIZARRE!

I followed your train of logic to include depression (THAT IS A MENTAL ILLNESS CHARITY) since you said women that are suffering from a mental illness (such as neurosis - again DEPRESSION IS LABELED UNDER NEUROSIS!) can not give consent. I would say, it would depend upon the mental illness, clearly. If the woman is still capable of having a rational thought then she is clearly capable of giving consent.

Here:

I say consent is when a woman desires sex.

YOU BROUGHT UP NEUROSIS! So, can a woman that is depressed (again, that's neurotic under the definition of neurotic) give consent? You want to wiggle out of prior remarks and not respond to follow up questions. I am merely responding to your points that fringe on the truly bizarre.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

And I never said that a woman that is drunk is incapable of giving consent. YOU asserted that I said that, twice now. I posted my actual remark earlier to remind you that I said if a woman did not give consent (regardless of her "tipsy"ness) that is rape. A woman that is intoxicated may be able to give consent. If she is intoxicated and is INCAPABLE of giving consent then she is raped. Is this really that hard to understand?
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Moniker wrote:
Charity, consent is when a woman desires sexual intercourse. I posted a definition about 3-4 pages back and that is my definition of consent. It always has been and hasn't altered. You apparently have different definitions of consent. YOU suggest that a woman suffering from low-self esteem or depression and seeks love by having sex is not capable of consent -- THAT IS BIZARRE!


Your definition is not consistent. I have not said that women suffering from low self-esteem are not capable of consent. I was asking you how that doesn't fit in with examples you have given. Since you cannot seem to comprehend what I say as a statement and what I ask as a question, there is little point in cointinuing a discussion.

Since you have repeatedly ignored me telling you I am not saying whay you say I am, and asking you questions which you will not answer, and since beastie refuses to provide data for the spacey charges she is making, I am out of this discussion.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

charity wrote:Moniker, this whole discussion we have been having is about consent. I am trying to nail you down on what you consider consent. You haven't told me yet. A woman who is drunk doesn't give consent.


I said this (AGAIN I AM POSTING IT SINCE YOU APPARENTLY HAVE READING COMPREHENSION ISSUES):

What do you mean by that? I have no idea what you are attempting to say. If a woman is unsure if she was raped (she was intoxicated --as is indicated in the stats for some cases) and yet did not give consent she was still raped. It matters not what she defines it as. Of course if she is traumatized by the experience it matters what she thinks as for her healing process and ability to cope with the assault. Yet, no matter how she is traumatized by the experience, or thinks of the experience, it does not change the fact that if she was sexually assaulted without consent she was raped -- it's that simple.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

charity wrote:
Moniker wrote:
Charity, consent is when a woman desires sexual intercourse. I posted a definition about 3-4 pages back and that is my definition of consent. It always has been and hasn't altered. You apparently have different definitions of consent. YOU suggest that a woman suffering from low-self esteem or depression and seeks love by having sex is not capable of consent -- THAT IS BIZARRE!


Your definition is not consistent. I have not said that women suffering from low self-esteem are not capable of content. I was asking you how that doesn't fit in with examples you have given. Since you cannot seem to comprehend what I say as a statement and what I ask as a question, there is little point in cointinuing a discussion.

Since you have repeatedly ignored me telling you I am not saying whay you say I am, and asking you questions which you will not answer, and since beastie refuses to provide data for the spacey charges she is making, I am out of this discussion.


My definition is consistent! If a woman says "YES" to sex, is desiring sex, does not resist, is not being forced, does not say "no" then she is consenting to sex!

You SAID a woman can only herself say if she was raped -- that is FALSE! You are the one linking neurosis (DEPRESSION) to an inability to consent. YOU are the one saying that a woman that is seeking love and instead gets a one night stand can not give consent. That is just plain NUTS! YOU are the one wiggling out of prior remarks.

Please tell me what I've asserted you've said which you have not. YOU are the one that repeatedly asserts that I said something counter to what I actually said!
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

con·sent (kn-snt)
intr.v. con·sent·ed, con·sent·ing, con·sents
1. To give assent, as to the proposal of another; agree.
2. Archaic To be of the same mind or opinion.


I posted this a few pages back. Again, this is the definition of consent.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

charity wrote:
asbestosman wrote:
charity wrote:The definition of abnormal behavior includes one description: any behavior which does not meet the goal of the behavior.


I'm not sure I like that definition. What counts as the goal? In bulimea, one gorges on food because it tastes good and then gets rid of it so as not to pack on the pounds. I suppose the goal is reached, but it is severely damaging to a person. Is it therefore merely categorized as destructive behavior instead of abnormal?

What of germophobes who constantly wash their hands and disinfect doorknobs?


There are 4 different ways to look at behavior to determine if it is normal or abnormal. And each has its own problems.

1. Anything that is away from the norm -- thus ABnormal. But obviously many behaviors which are not what everybody does aren't going to cause any problems. In some instances, the ABnormal has real benefits to the individual or to the society.

2. Any behavior which is destructive to the individual or to others.

3. Any behavior which is maladaptive--(this is the one I was referring to) where the behavior does not lead to the goal for which the behavior is performed.

4. Any behavior which is distressing to the individual, and which is not controllable.


Interestingly enough abstinence from masturbation can be considered abnormal behavior to some. :)
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Moniker wrote:Please tell me what I've asserted you've said which you have not. YOU are the one that repeatedly asserts that I said something counter to what I actually said!


Check this one out:
Moniker wrote: You are the one linking neurosis (DEPRESSION) to an inability to consent. YOU are the one saying that a woman that is seeking love and instead gets a one night stand can not give consent. That is just plain NUTS! YOU are the one wiggling out of prior remarks.


I NEVER NEVER NEVER said that neurosis was the same as depression. NEVER NEVER NEVER.

This is what you have done consistently in this thread. So now, I have proven to you what you have been doing. Goodbye.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

charity wrote:
Moniker wrote:Please tell me what I've asserted you've said which you have not. YOU are the one that repeatedly asserts that I said something counter to what I actually said!


Check this one out:
Moniker wrote: You are the one linking neurosis (DEPRESSION) to an inability to consent. YOU are the one saying that a woman that is seeking love and instead gets a one night stand can not give consent. That is just plain NUTS! YOU are the one wiggling out of prior remarks.


I NEVER NEVER NEVER said that neurosis was the same as depression. NEVER NEVER NEVER.


Well you apparently don't understand neurosis and yet you used the term. How very bizarre.

This is what you have done consistently in this thread. So now, I have proven to you what you have been doing. Goodbye.


Charity, depression fits under the definition of neurosis. It is categorized under the definition of neurosis. YOU said neurosis -- that includes depression. You know this, right? What is your definition of neurosis (which is apparently different from any other source)?

Here ya go: http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/n ... gn=article

The word neurosis means "nerve disorder," and was first coined in the late eighteenth century by William Cullen, a Scottish physician. Cullen's concept of neurosis encompassed those nervous disorders and symptoms that do not have a clear organic cause. Sigmund Freud later used the term anxiety neurosis to describe mental illness or distress with extreme anxiety as a defining feature.

There is a difference of opinion over the clinical use of the term neurosis today. It is not generally used as a diagnostic category by American psychologists and psychiatrists any longer, and was removed from the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1980 with the publication of the third edition (it last appeared as a diagnostic category in DSM-II). Some professionals use the term to describe anxious symptoms and associated behavior, or to describe the range of mental illnesses outside of the psychotic disorders (such as schizophrenia, delusional disorder). Others, particularly psychoanalysts (psychiatrists and psychologists who follow a psychoanalytical model of treatment, as popularized by Freud and Carl Jung), use the term neurosis to describe the internal process itself (called an unconscious conflict) that triggers the anxiety characteristic.





The neurotic disorders are distinct from psychotic disorders in that the individual with neurotic symptoms has a firm grip on reality
, and the psychotic patient does not. Before their reclassification, there were several major traditional categories of psychological neuroses, including: anxiety neurosis, depressive neurosis, obsessive-compulsive neurosis, somatization, posttraumatic stress disorder, and compensation neurosis—not a true neurosis, but a form of malingering, or feigning psychological symptoms for monetary or other personal gain.


Just curious if having post-traumatic stress disorder (which used to be labeled as a neurosis) also means a woman is raped when she has sex? Since she's neurotic if she's suffering from PTSD then she's (according to Charity) been raped and is incapable of giving consent.

by the way, I'm still waiting for a response to my CFR that a woman that has numerous sexual partners in a quest for love (after abandonment) is neurotic and has been raped -- as you stated.

I suppose my problem all along is responding to your points with the belief that you understand what you're saying, apparently you don't.

You said neurosis, that includes depression. Perhaps, you should not try to make a case without understanding your own terminology. That may be a start.
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