Which way did they go Joe?

[_charity]

Let's see, what do I know about Gee? He's the guy who let everyone, including his friend Daniel, believe a lie about his PhD committee, isn't he? Like I'm going to believe him?

Get someone who doesn't have an agenda to say the same thing, and I'll consider it, charity. Geez, girl! At least find a reputable source!

One of your problems is that you are very sure of things you think are facts, which aren't, and not sure of things which really are facts. Sad. Then go to this link which quotes from contemporaneous sources, if you don't like Gee. Or are you one of those who think that contemporaneous sources are only okay if they are anti-Mormon?

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Ab ... tml#point1

Poor charity, more like.

Think about it. If I am right, and I in really well on the other side. If I am wrong, I am on an equal footing with all the other Christians out there. I am "saved." If you are wrong, you have heavy duty repenting to do. And if you are right, we are in the same place, "saved" according to traditional Christianity. In the meantime, I don't hate anybody. That is a pretty good feeling.

I'm the one who follows the Lord.

I've yet to see any manifestations of it here.

Snarky, snarky.

And He has commanded that I follow His prophets as they reveal His word.

Your prime responsibility is not to follow the prophets, charity. Your prime responsibility is to follow Christ. You might want to check your hole card.

D&C 1: 38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Now, I see where you are coming from. You can't speak for our ancestors and what they sacrificed.

Our ancestors? I can speak for what my family's ancestors sacrificed. Can you?

Absolutely. My family includes handcart pioneers, people who joined the Church in England and came to Zion in the 1870's. And some Missouri persecutors as well.

[_Trevor]

Your source for saying that is? I think corporations are pretty hard headed. They don't continue to spend money on what doesn't work. It's all in the bottom line. Remember?

Dowsing has been tested. It has been found to be no more accurate than blind guessing.

Corporations are liable to make huge mistakes. Remember Enron?

[_ludwigm]

...
"In the young Joseph Smith's time and place, "money digging" was a popular, and sometimes respected activity. When Joseph was 16, the Palmyra Herald printed such remarks as: ...

The "money digging" never was a working, real activity. It was fraud, and who committed it, knew this.
Seek hidden treasures with magic rod or with seer stone may have been popular or respected or believed but didn't ever work.

Nice that you eliminated most of the article. You are severely afflicted with presentism. Oh, by the way, the Roche Corportation still uses dousing as a method for locating water sources for their facilities.

If You think of dowsing, it is as hoax as astrology, parapsychology and so many pseudoscience. They was and will be, and this is not presentism.
When one "expert" searched for lines of force in the room of one of my friends (for a lot of money, of course) and he rearranged his funiture, I called him stupid, even he was and is a good friend. The Roche Corportation proves there are many people who pay for it, it is not enough a few individual to serve them.

I was certain You are the type who buy all of this. Oh, by the way, have You the horoscope for the next year?

[_charity]

If You think of dowsing, it is as hoax as astrology, parapsychology and so many pseudoscience. They was and will be, and this is not presentism.
When one "expert" searched for lines of force in the room of one of my friends (for a lot of money, of course) and he rearranged his funiture, I called him stupid, even he was and is a good friend. The Roche Corportation proves there are many people who pay for it, it is not enough a few individual to serve them.

You missed the point, again. Historians know that you judge people in their own times, not in later times. In Joseph Smith's day treasure hunting was a respectable activity. Now, unless you are looking for Spanish galleons, you are probably a kook. Just like people wore asfedita bags around their necks 200 years ago to protect them from illness. It would look silly today, but back then it was state of the art medicine. Presentism strikes again.

I was certain You are the type who buy all of this. Oh, by the way, have You the horoscope for the next year?

Your remark is silly and ignorant.

[_Trevor]

You missed the point, again. Historians know that you judge people in their own times, not in later times. In Joseph Smith's day treasure hunting was a respectable activity.

So Abner Cole's send up of money digging in the Palmyra Reflector was playing on its respectability? To say that many people were engaging in this stuff may be true, but to call it respectable is not accurate. There is a difference between popular and respectable. Ludwig's mention of astrology is apropos. Astrology is popular, but I would hardly call it respectable.

[_harmony]

One of your problems is that you are very sure of things you think are facts, which aren't, and not sure of things which really are facts.

One of your problems is you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you, if said fact contradicted the modern prophets. And that is what I call sad.

Think about it. If I am right, and I in really well on the other side. If I am wrong, I am on an equal footing with all the other Christians out there. I am "saved." If you are wrong, you have heavy duty repenting to do. And if you are right, we are in the same place, "saved" according to traditional Christianity. In the meantime, I don't hate anybody. That is a pretty good feeling.

If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter, because there is no way I'm going where polygamy is required.

D&C 1: 38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Charity, don't you get it? Check your hole card, Sis. A man wrote that!

Absolutely. My family includes handcart pioneers, people who joined the Church in England and came to Zion in the 1870's. And some Missouri persecutors as well.

So does mine. And based on the journals of the women, they were pretty unhappy about polygamy, even those who were lucky enough to be first wives.

[_charity]

Think about it. If I am right, and I in really well on the other side. If I am wrong, I am on an equal footing with all the other Christians out there. I am "saved." If you are wrong, you have heavy duty repenting to do. And if you are right, we are in the same place, "saved" according to traditional Christianity. In the meantime, I don't hate anybody. That is a pretty good feeling.

If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter, because there is no way I'm going where polygamy is required.

Right. That why there are three degrees of Glory. The perfect plan. You won't have to go anywhere you don't want to be. Heaven is where you will be happy.

D&C 1: 38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Charity, don't you get it? Check your hole card, Sis. A man wrote that!

And if you don't know by the witness you are entitled to receive that those are the Lord's words given to us through a prophet, that is your problem. I am curious. Just how do you determine what are revelations and what aren't? If it agrees with what you think it is? If it doesn't, then it isn't?

Absolutely. My family includes handcart pioneers, people who joined the Church in England and came to Zion in the 1870's. And some Missouri persecutors as well.

So does mine. And based on the journals of the women, they were pretty unhappy about polygamy, even those who were lucky enough to be first wives.

I'd like to see those journals. I wonder if there is selective attention going on here. Are you seeing all the negative, and ignoring any of the positives? Or were these just a bunch of crabby old women? A lot of women are like that. I know some who are crabby about monogamy.

[_harmony]

Charity, don't you get it? Check your hole card, Sis. A man wrote that!

And if you don't know by the witness you are entitled to receive that those are the Lord's words given to us through a prophet, that is your problem. [/quote]

And if you're following a man who the Lord cut loose because of his iniquities, that is your problem.

I am curious. Just how do you determine what are revelations and what aren't? If it agrees with what you think it is? If it doesn't, then it isn't?

It's called personal inspiration. I use it all the time, and it's not played me false yet. It is the only revelation that I trust, since it is what led me to Joseph's all-too-human fallibility in the first place.

So does mine. And based on the journals of the women, they were pretty unhappy about polygamy, even those who were lucky enough to be first wives.

I'd like to see those journals. I wonder if there is selective attention going on here. Are you seeing all the negative, and ignoring any of the positives? Or were these just a bunch of crabby old women? A lot of women are like that. I know some who are crabby about monogamy.

Why? You'd just discount them, as women not having enough faith. Absolutely never would you read them as women who'd been taken advantage of, who'd been snookered by men they trusted. And they weren't always old, although some of them lived a long life.

[_Tori]

I'd like to see those journals. I wonder if there is selective attention going on here. Are you seeing all the negative, and ignoring any of the positives? Or were these just a bunch of crabby old women? A lot of women are like that. I know some who are crabby about monogamy.

Crabby about monogamy? ROFLMAO!! Really? So, just how many women do you know that are truly crabby about monogamy?

[_ludwigm]

If You think of dowsing, it is as hoax as astrology, parapsychology and so many pseudoscience. They was and will be, and this is not presentism.
When one "expert" searched for lines of force in the room of one of my friends (for a lot of money, of course) and he rearranged his funiture, I called him stupid, even he was and is a good friend. The Roche Corportation proves there are many people who pay for it, it is not enough a few individual to serve them.

You missed the point, again. Historians know that you judge people in their own times, not in later times. In Joseph Smith's day treasure hunting was a respectable activity. Now, unless you are looking for Spanish galleons, you are probably a kook. Just like people wore asfedita bags around their necks 200 years ago to protect them from illness. It would look silly today, but back then it was state of the art medicine. Presentism strikes again.

Only to show who misses the point, look at Your example:
If I condemned people for wearing asfedita bags 200 years ago, (I think You mean asafoetida) this were presentism.
If I casted the blame on doctors (200 years ago) for proposing that material, that were presentism, too.

I do none of the above. I don't judge that people, who lived 200 years ago and used to apply that science 200 years ago. I say that wearing asafoedita bags around the neck doesn't protect from anything. And it didn't protect back then and will not protect from anything in the future.
This is not presentism, this is THE SCIENCE. Or the fact, which is a thing You don't like.

asafoetida (Ferula assafoetida, family Apiaceae), alternative spelling asafetida (also known as devil's dung, stinking gum, asant, food of the gods, hing, and giant fennel) is a species of Ferula native to Iran

"In Joseph Smith's day treasure hunting was a respectable ( =well paid ) activity",
but it didn't work then, it doesn't work now, and never will work. And this was well known by Joseph Smith and all other treasure hunters.