BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_truth dancer]

I live in the east. BYU tuition, books, room and board is about $10,000-$12,000 per year. Air fare a few times a year is about another $1000.

A state school in my state has tuition of about $6000 a year and most the ones they would attend would have room and board as well. BYU is deal.

I'm not going to quibble with you on this but... (smile)

Around here, most kids who are from average middle class families go to a community college for a few years while living at home and sharing the family car, home, and other luxuries of life, like computers. They work, and contribute as they can. They may transfer to any one of several state colleges nearby after a couple of years. They spend nowhere near the fifty thousand dollars required for other more affluent youth in the area to attend BYU/BYU Idaho/BYU Hawaii.

Maybe this area is unique...

~dancer~

[_harmony]

BYU is deal.

So someone's hard earned tithing dollar, whose own children will never see the lights of BYU because they can't afford higher education in any form, goes to make subsidized higher education possible for a middle class American family. And that's a deal.

O-kay.

[_Jason Bourne]

Harmony

As noted in a post Elder Packer said in a BYU Today article in the mid to late 90's that the Church subsidized tuition of about $16,000 per year per student. For 27,000 students that is $432,000,000 per year. In the same article he said institute cost the Church about $350 per student per year. He said the Church was very concerned about this disparity.

[_Jason Bourne]

I live in the east. BYU tuition, books, room and board is about $10,000-$12,000 per year. Air fare a few times a year is about another $1000.

A state school in my state has tuition of about $6000 a year and most the ones they would attend would have room and board as well. BYU is deal.

I'm not going to quibble with you on this but... (smile)

Around here, most kids who are from average middle class families go to a community college for a few years while living at home and sharing the family car, home, and other luxuries of life, like computers. They work, and contribute as they can. They may transfer to any one of several state colleges nearby after a couple of years. They spend nowhere near the fifty thousand dollars required for other more affluent youth in the area to attend BYU/BYU Idaho/BYU Hawaii.

Maybe this area is unique...

~dancer~

Recalling where you live I can tell you the tuition for your state schools is about 25% what ours is where I live. I know because my SIL is looking at schools in your state for her kids. They used to live in your town and they are bemoaning the fact that they came back to our area and losing the great state tuition and the great schools you guys have there.

[_Jason Bourne]

BYU is deal.

So someone's hard earned tithing dollar, whose own children will never see the lights of BYU because they can't afford higher education in any form, goes to make subsidized higher education possible for a middle class American family. And that's a deal.

O-kay.

Looking at economics alone it is a deal. Did I feel bad that I got the deal. Some what. Some what not. But as noted, I think the tuition should go up. A lot.

[_harmony]

Like I said the institute program where I live is barely breathing. And FYI, the only requirement I even put on my kids is that the attend a school that had an institute program of at least a few hundred kids. I wanted them to have access to that for their social life.

That's my point, Jason. The Institute program where you live wouldn't be barely breathing, if BYU didn't exist. If BYU didn't exist, your Institute program would be strong and vital, if kids from families like yours didn't have the tithing-subsidized option of BYU.

Would you send your kids to BYU, if you had to foot the entire bill? If there was no subsidy for members?

I thought I trusted them fine. Two wanted to go to BYU, one was iffy. Oh and by the way, BYU did not keep two active at all.

Then not only was it a sad waste of tithing money, but it didn't live up its reputation.

My son go the boot from BYUI after being there two weeks. He got caught smoking pot. So for my boy, I regret the pressure I did put on him to go to BYUI. He joined the Marines shortly thereafter.

Hindsight is always better than foresight. Parents don't have a crystal ball, and BYU isn't a magical place guarenteed to turn a wayward kid around.

My other daughter went on a study abroad with BYU, met an inactive LDS boy in Brazil, quit school, moved to Brazil, moved in with the dude and recently after a year and a half of shaking up got married.

All that tithing gone, and nothing to show for it.

My oldest loved BYU and met her hubby there.

At least she has a husband to show for the expense of tithing.

My youngest still has 6 year til college. So did I trust my kids? Maybe not enough. Did two of them follow the path I had hoped they would. Nope. Not at BYU either.

Parenting is a crap shoot. We win some, we lose some. But I see no reason to subsidize an LDS education to the tune of millions of dollars in tithing.

Yes some places it is. Not where I live.

We have a program in this state where high school students who qualify can attend a community college for their junior and senior year, earning high school credit for the classes they take at the college. Any student is eligible as long as they pass the test and can get to the colleges classes. They earn an AA in the same time frame they graduate from high school. It's a very cool program for many elite kids. On the other hand, many top students desert their high schools, taking with them their example and their leadership, leaving the kids left behind with examples of poor leadership and generally bad examples. That reason alone was why I refused to allow my kids to participate in the community college program. They could have passed the test and we could have provided them with transportation (even though it would have been a huge burden), but what about all those other kids, the ones left behind? The ones who weren't quite smart enough, who didn't have the means to get transportation to the college, whose parents didn't understand the need for a college education?

I see Institute in much the same way. My kids were a huge asset to their colleges Institute programs. They met their mates there, made lifelong friendships, learned from the Institute classes, strengthened their testimonies because the environment in which they lived wasn't pristine. Without lots of kids like mine, Institute becomes what it is where you live, where everyone who can afford it sends their kids to Utah.

No I really think BYU is a good deal but I would favor increasing the tuition.

It isn't a good deal, for the kids in the Institute close to where you live.

[_harmony]

Apparently you get value out of snarling about BYU--as though that will somehow benefits your children. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You be sure to let us know when you have children, Wade. Until then, you really don't have a dog in this fight.

[_harmony]

Harmony

As noted in a post Elder Packer said in a BYU Today article in the mid to late 90's that the Church subsidized tuition of about $16,000 per year per student. For 27,000 students that is $432,000,000 per year. In the same article he said institute cost the Church about $350 per student per year. He said the Church was very concerned about this disparity.

Batten down the hatches. Secure the windows. Drain the water bed. The world just tilted on its axis. I agree with
Elder Packer!

[_charity]

Do the math, charity. $200 per credit for LDS. $400 per credit for nonLDS. NonLDS carry their entire cost, no tithing supplements for them. For LDS, tithing supplement's $200 per credit. Times 18 credits per quarter, times 40,000 students, times 3 quarters per year. That's a subsidy of $10,000 per student per year. That's $400 million per year. That doesn't count the scholarship students. They pay nothing. I don't know about you, charity, but $400 million is a lot of money that to me could be better spent elsewhere, actually fulfilling the three fold mission of the church.

You didn't take into account the conitnuing endowment funds, the annual fund raising, the very large gifts by different people. So you are still guessing.

And so they applied to go there for what reason? Just to be able to say, "I could have gone if I wanted but I turned my nose up at them? And what kind of good attitude is that?

[
Yup. Because in my ward, everyone sends their kids to BYU or BYU-Idaho. People were looking down on my kids because they chose to follow the commandment, so I spent the money to have them apply to BYU, and then they turned the acceptance down. No way could anyone look down on them again.

The application costs aren't too bad, so I suppose as prideful things go, that wasn't too much of a waste of money. Not like buying a Hummer to show off in.

Oh, and sorry about your ward. In mine the kids who stay home and go to local colleges and universities aren't looked down on.

[
A funny thing happened the other day, when I was visiting with a friend of mine in the ward. She was lamenting that most of her children and grandchildren lived far away from her, while all of mine are in this state, even though none of them actually lives closer than an hour away. How did I end up having all my grandkids close by enough that I could go see them on a day trip? I told her it was because my kids all went to in-state colleges, not BYU. They chose mates who also lived in this state. She sent her kids to BYU and BYU-I. They chose mates from all over the country, and they went to live where their mates were from. Her children are in Florida, AK, AZ, CA, and NV. Mine are here.Another unseen unexpected perk of instate colleges. Poor her. Lucky me.[/

Pretty smug there, aren't you? Let me tell you about my kids. We raised them all in northern Oregon. The oldest met and married someone she met in Switzerland. They live in Minnesota because that's where his job took him. My second not married. My third married someone she met at a convention and they live in the state he grew up in. My fourth went to a local university, married a local girl and they moved to Colorado, also for a job. My fifth married a man, native of Colorado, that she met at BYU. They live in Maryland. Also job related. My six lives next door to me. Went to BYU, married a local guy.

It is pretty much a crap shoot where your kids will live. You have some nerve telling your friend the reason your kids live close is because you so wisely kept them from the big, bad BYU and its her fault her grandkids aren't close because she sent her kids to BYU. What judgemental hogwash!

[_harmony]

You didn't take into account the conitnuing endowment funds, the annual fund raising, the very large gifts by different people. Soyou are still guessing.

Turns out it was a good guess, charity. Elder Packer said the same thing: over $400 million in tithing at BYU. Please don't let the fact that my calculations agreed with his deter you. Go ahead and tell him he's wrong too.

It is pretty much a crap shoot where your kids will live. You have some nerve telling your friend the reason your kids live close is because you so wisely kept them from the big, bad BYU and its her fault her grandkids aren't close because she sent her kids to BYU. What judgemental hogwash!

Actually, I didn't tell her any such thing, except to point out where our respective children met their mates. She is my friend, after all. I commiserated with her that her grandkids are so far away. I realize I'm very lucky to have them all close enough to visit but not so close we stifle each other. But there's no denying that the reason my kids are close is in large part because I refused to send them far away to another state for college. You marry out of your dating pool, and my kids' dating pools contained people from their home state.