Howdy & Introduction

[_Gazelam]

Its more than the difference between "chant" and "spoken in unison". The words "Pay lay Ale" were not spoken at all. The words used were spoken in English, repeated three times.

This pattern appears in an ancient Apocryphal text. I'll dig it up when I have the time.

This I have to see!

Almost all accounts mention the introduction of the prayer as being in a strange language, a triple formula of words resembling each other. Thus in 1 Jeu after they form the circle, Jesus begins a hymn which appears to be meaningless, a speaking in tongues, a glossolalia.41 In the Pistis Sophia also, the Lord, having formed the apostles and their wives in a circle around him and "taking the place of Adam at the altar, called upon the Father three times in an unknown tongue."42 Elsewhere the text explains how while they stood "all in white, each with the cipher of the name of the Father in his hand," Jesus prayed in a strange language, beginning with the words Iaō, aōi, ōia! which, we are told, meant "Hear me Father, the Father of all fatherhood, boundless light!" According to our source, "This is the interpretation: Iota, because everything came out of (began with) it; Alpha because everything will return to it; Omega because everything is process (lit. the fulfilling of all fulfilling)"43

In another version, when the Lord "ordered the Twelve to make a prayer circle and join him in a triple Amen and hymn to the Father and Creator of all treasure," he began by saying "iē, iē, iē, [calling upon the Father] . . . to create beings to be the Lords of every treasure, and as such to bear the name of their Father Jeu, who has replenished the treasuries with countless spirits and degrees of glory."44 When Abraham, according to an old and highly respected source, "rebuilt the altar of Adam in order to bring a sacrifice to the Eternal One," as he had been instructed by an angel, he raised his voice in prayer, saying: "El, El, El! El Jaoel! [the last meaning Jehovah] . . . receive the words of my prayer! Receive the sacrifice which I have made at thy command! Have mercy, show me, teach me, give to thy servant the light and knowledge thou hast promised to send him!"45 Abraham was following the example of Adam, who prayed to God for three days, repeating three times the prayer: "May the words of my mouth be heard! God, do not withdraw thyself from my supplication! . . . Then an angel of the Lord came with a book, and comforted Adam and taught him."46 When Adam and Eve found themselves cut off from the glory of the Lord, according to the intriguing Combat of Adam, they stood with upstretched hands calling upon the Lord, as "Adam began to pray in a language which is unintelligible to us."47 The so-called Coptic Gnostic Writing purports to give us Adam's words on the occasion as being composed of the elements lō-i-a and i-oy-ēl, meaning "God is with us forever and ever," and "through the power of revelation."48 The Jewish traditions indicate that the story is no Gnostic invention, though of course mysterious names and cryptograms are the stuff on which human vanity feeds, and every ambitious sectary would come up with his own words and interpretations. Yet, though none of these writings may be taken as binding or authentic, taken all together they contain common elements which go back as far as the church of the apostles. When Mary asks the Lord, "Tell me your highest name!" "He, standing in the midst of a cloud of light, said, 'He, Elohe, Elohe, Elohe; Eran, Eran, Eran; Rafon, Rafon, Rafon; Raqon, Raqon, Raqon,'"etc.49 Such mysteries are just the sort of thing unqualified persons love to play around with, and various Gnostic groups took fullest advantage of them. But again, the Jews are way ahead of them, as we see in the huge catalogues of mysterious angelic names in such works as 3 Enoch.

41. Pulver, "Jesus' Round Dance and Crucifixion," 175.

42. Pistis Sophia, p. 358; tr. Mead, 295.

43. Ibid., 375; tr. Mead, 310; 357–58; tr. Mead, 295.

44. 1 Jeu, in Schmidt, Gnostische Schriften in koptischer Sprache, 326, 370.

45. Apocalypse of Abraham 12:8–9; 17:11–17; cf. OTP 1:697.

46. M. J. Bin Gorion, Die Sagen der Juden, 5 vols. (Frankfurt: Rutten & Loening, 1913), 1:260–62; cf. Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews 1:91.

47. G. B., "Le Combat d'Adam et Eve," text in DA 1:329–32.

48. Coptic Gnostic Work, 37–38, in Schmidt, Gnostische Schriften in koptischer Sprache, 253; cf. tr., 300.

49. Sebastian Euringer, "Die Binde der Rechtfertigung," Orientalia, 2nd ser., 9 (1940): 249.

[_karl61]

Thanks Gaz!

[_Trevor]

Where do you keep all your Che Guevara T shirts so your parents won't find them Trevor? In the same place you keep your Bong pipe and your autographed copy of Dude, Where's My Country?

Hey, if you know and you ain't sayin', I'm gonna be really pissed. I hid them so well that even I can't find them!

[_Jason Bourne]

And you have done the same.

The only time I have gotten in your face is when you first do me or when I see how abhorent you have treated others. Before I was more NOMish I was even then appalled and ashamed at how you treated your opponents.

Were I to take the time to extract from the archives the vicious, mean spirited names you've called me in the past,

I actually would think you would be hard pressed to find more then a few times that I have been nasty with you.

and combine that with your use of my addiction problems against me (which I have always been forthcoming about here, which I now see perhaps was not a good idea),

Got you on this one. I have never, ever once used any of your personal problems against you. I have never slammed you for a drinking problem like others have. I have found their behavior shameful. And even now and recently on a few other threads have I brought up any inactivity issues and that because I was shocked when you said yourself that you have been inactive for about a year now. Just astounded. I never knew that. And that fact makes your in your face attitude towards me and other LDS that are less TBM than you think we should be simply hollow.

Look I believe we all have issues and problems. I pray that you can overcome yours. I believe in mercy and meekness and forgivesness as well as not judging. I do not judge you at all. I just ask you to stop judging me. Feel free to debate my thoughts and postions but stop the personal attacks and well wil get along just fine.

apparently to deligitimize my defense of the Church, I could fill a decently sized OP with them.

Again you miss my point. I am not trying to demean your defense. I am trying to demean your attacks about me and and my status as what you call a cafeteria Mormon.

This entire thing is becoming quite boring at this point.

I still believe in Galatians 5:22-23. Sorry my friend, I just don't see good fruit from your strong testimony. Like Lowell Bennion and Eugene Englund I believe results and behavior are far more important than orthodoxy of belief.

[_Trevor]

Like Lowell Bennion and Eugene Englund I believe results and behavior are far more important than orthodoxy of belief.

Freakin' AMEN to that!!!

[_rcrocket]

Like Lowell Bennion and Eugene Englund I believe results and behavior are far more important than orthodoxy of belief.

Freakin' AMEN to that!!!

They are/were both great men. But they would take offense to being held up as the poster children for the disaffected, mean-spirited anonymous vendor of hate and bile against the Church. The fact you use your first name as your screen name is rather meaningless. I for one, as well as Tal Bachman, Bob McCue, Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalfe, Dr. Peterson, Bill Hamblin and others are not afraid to put our names behind our public statements.

As far as Jason's reference to the two men, my response is to him is that they were both faithful men. They did not doubt, and are not the poster children for doubt. That they were liberals (England, more so), does not demean or disparage their faith. I am a liberal Democrat; I oppose the war and consider it patriotic to oppose it. I oppose laws that limit freedom of choice in moral issues. But, because I am a political liberal it does not make me a doubter, which Jason implies from his post.

[_Trevor]

They are/were both great men. But they would take offense to being held up as the poster children for the disaffected, mean-spirited anonymous vendor of hate and bile against the Church. The fact you use your first name as your screen name is rather meaningless. I for one, as well as Tal Bachman, Bob McCue, Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalfe, Dr. Peterson, Bill Hamblin and others are not afraid to put our names behind our public statements.

You, Bob, are habitually incapable of speaking to the issue at hand, especially when you see an opportunity to take a pot shot at someone you do not like. I was not holding up these men as "poster children" for the disaffected. I was holding up the principle as sound, as it surely is. You are a jackass.

As for me not using my first name, that choice is a wise one that was made to protect my career. The majority of the people you list up there risk very little or nothing professionally by using their real names. Dan and Brent are well-known critics, whose reputations are buoyed up by the effective way they have skewered apologists online. Daniel and Bill are essentially subsidized by their employer to engage in online apologetics, their denials notwithstanding. Tal Bachman's musical career is not likely to be affected by his posts, and certainly his royalty checks will not be. You and Bob I know less about.

I, on the other hand, could risk everything. My field of specialty is particularly old school, as it were, and its powerful people are just stuffy enough not to look kindly on blogging and discussion board participation. Were this not the case, I would gladly use my full, real name. I have no other reason to protect my identity. I am quite happy to let people know what I think of the LDS Church, when they pursue the matter in private. My parents know my thoughts. My friends know my thoughts. I am not ashamed of who I am.

Unless your participation here constitutes a real threat to your professional viability, cram it. You are not a model of integrity or courage.

[_Moniker]

Unless your participation here constitutes a real threat to your professional viability, cram it. You are not a model of integrity or courage.

Bravo!

[_LDS Missionary]

LDS Missionary,

In order to confirm your suspicions, I will now tell you what is up with Coggins7. He is an inmate at a low-security psychiatric institution. Unfortunately for us, the state has granted the inmates unlimited internet access. If you wonder why he rarely makes sense, it is because the state, while springing for internet, neglected to pay for the patients' meds. According to Coggins7, this is the kind of disaster you get when liberals have overrun the government, which he is only too happy to inform you of ad nauseam and beyond.

You have been fairly warned. Good day.

Wow, I can't believe how much activity's on this little thread. Trevor, thanks for the heads up.

[_LDS Missionary]

Hey LDS Missionary. I post over at RfM too, under a different name. Parts of your website have made me laugh out loud. Nice to see you here. :)

Thanks for the welcome and for checking out my site.