Dr. Peterson makes a lot of sense

[_moksha]

So basically critics shouldn't be splitting hairs trying to determine degrees of weirdness.

Not without a certified Weirdometer.

[Guest]

Not without a certified Weirdometer.

Did the angel deliver one of those to Joseph too?

[_antishock8]

I seriously can't believe how any Mormon would see a thread like this, and come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was not a fraud. There doesn't need to be huge apologetic articles written. There doesn't need to be myriad conversations over nuance and triva. All that needs to be shown, and it has, is the Church deliberately misled, distorted, and/or taught a fradulent version of events. I would say that the Church lied about it, but some here are sensitive to bombastic language like that.

S**t man, I was a missionary, with a flip chart and manual, and never ONCE taught that Jospeh Smith had a seer stone and used the face-in-the-hat trick to produce the Book of Mormon... Sans plates. Didn't know about it. Never taught it. The Church knew, though. They chose not to disclose it, and taught a different version, instead. Deliberately. Obfuscation at its best.

[_Gazelam]

I seriously can't believe how any Mormon would see a thread like this, and come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was not a fraud.

Because when you look at the doctrines that came from this, then you realize how right Joseph was. The teachings that came forth from the restoration clarify and expand and expound all of the teachigns of Christ that we have from the Bible. It clarifys teachings and makes Christ easier to understand.

And how does the way Joseph received revelation through Urim and Thummim compare to your experience? You obviously are baseing your criticisms on personal experience through your own usage, am I right?

[_RockHeaded]

Joseph Smith only used the Urim and Thummim to translate, that is what he said, that is what Oliver Cowdery said.

Joseph's brother, William, said this about the use of the Urim and Thummim; "the instrument caused a strain on Joseph's eyes, and he sometimes resorted to the plan of covering his eyes with a hat to exclude the light in part."

"according to the Boston and New York public libraries (Jewish division) in Old Testament times, when the sacred Urim and Thummim was used, the High Priests or priests wore specially made "head gear" bearing the name of "tiara ..." This sacred head covering, drawn around the Urim and Thummim when worn like spectacles, shielded the eyes, avoiding eye strain"
"... enemies of the Book of Mormon and its translater have, in lectures and public debates, ridiculed Joseph Smith for wearing a wide-brimmed hat, drawn over his eyes and the Urim and Thummim while translating, as testified by Lucy Smith, his mother; Emma Smith, his wife; William Smith, his younger brother; and David Whitmer. The head-dress "hat" proves essentially restful to strain the eyes, also seclusion from distracting scenes, Josen Smith doubtless knew nothing at that time of Israelitish customs in wearing the Urim and Thummim" {Research Notes On Doctrine and Covenants - Church History, Thelona D. Stevens, 1976 Ind. Mo. pp 11, 12}

The American Indians and the urim and thummim;

"The Levitical high-priest wore a breast-plate, which they called Hosechim, and on it the Urim and Thummim, signifying lights and perfections; for they were plurals of Awora, (which inverted makes Erowa) and Thorah, the law, as it directed them under dark shadow, to Messiah, the lamp of light and perfection. In resemblance of this sacred pectoral, or breast-plate, the American Archi-magus wears a breat-plate, made of a white conch-shell ... as if in imitation of the precious stone of Urim, which miraculously blazoned from the high-priest's breast, the unerring words of the devine oracle ..." {History of the American Indians, James Adair, Promontory Press, New Your, NY. (1986) p.88}



The picture above was taken by Roy Weldon, this statue was found in Merica, Yucatan. The priest is wearing an object "in a size and shape to be used as spectacles as described by Mosiah." {Book of Mormon Claims and Evidences, vol. 2 Roy E. Weldon adn F. Edward Butterworth, (1979) Ind. Mo. p. 152}


Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.

RockHeaded

[_moksha]

RockHeaded

The statue appears to have both reading glasses around his neck and googles on his forhead to protect his eyes during a jaunty sled pull by a team of tapirs. On Carocumer, on Cupid , on Hockquetzal and Shizten! Dash away, dash away, dash away all....

[_Boaz & Lidia]

This is why DCP and other piles of FARMS excrement within so called Mormon archeology is a complete JOKE in academia.

[_Jersey Girl]

Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.

People sometimes lie.

[_RockHeaded]

Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.

People sometimes lie.

is this a self confession?

[_RockHeaded]

This is why DCP and other piles of FARMS excrement within so called Mormon archeology is a complete JOKE in academia.

is that all you have to say? lol at least you could have an explaination. This is why DCP and others do not post here because you do not come up with a worth while arguement. I am willing to accept a good explaination, as I've said before I am a reasonable person. This though, this is a joke.