LDS Apologetics Operating Costs Are More Than $7,000,000

[_Rollo Tomasi]

It is all in the presentation Rollo. Come on. What is the intent here. DCP has explained himself. You frankly are calling him a liar.

I'm simply pointing out what the data says on FARMS's publicly filed tax documents. So far, DCP has claimed that two of the three I have (he hasn't mentioned the third ... yet) are false. I find that a bit odd because people are generally careful about signing tax documents under oath and penalties of perjury.

Look FARMS is and NFP. But people who do work and services for an NFP get paid. Sometimes they get paid a lot. NFP does not mean it cannot be run like a business and pay people for services. You all are having a hey day-"Apologetics seems pretty lucrative." Hardly. And keep in mind that FARMS does A LOT more than apologetics. That seems very clear from the expenses you listed above.

DCP had been going on and on about how little he makes from apologia, and perhaps that's true, but the last public disclosures we have from FARMS suggest a very different picture. Which one is correct, I don't know, but at least we have some neutral, hard facts.

by the way, Tax returns are no signed under oath.

The Form 990 certainly is. I'm reading it right now. FARMS's 1999 Form 990 is signed by one Daniel Oswald as Executive Director, just under this statement:

Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return, including accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and belief, it is true, correct, and complete.

Sure sounds like an oath to me.

[_Mister Scratch]

You know, I was curious about that as well, Rollo. Why on earth would it take almost half a million dollars to distribute a newsletter? That seems pretty fishy to me.

Postage cost lots. This is really not a large amount.

Where is the evidence, Jason? All I see from you is speculation and spin.

DCP has stated that he "can't recall" exactly what was going on at that time, and the forms themselves specifically state that he was paid for being a Board Chair. To assume that he was having his time "bought out", or whatever, with zero documentary evidence, is pure speculation.

Yep. You have taught me well.

Actually, you have taught *me*. You asked for solid evidence and I provided it. And yet, that doesn't seem to be enough for you. Tell me: have you even bothered to look up the forms, as Rollo and I have? Surely you aren't making claims without having read the forms.....

The best assumption to make, based on the evidence at hand, is that DCP was paid $20,000 for apologetics after FARMS had an especially good year on the stock market.

So you are calling DCP a liar now. Right?

No. He has himself stated that he doesn't remember all the details.

[_Jersey Girl]

This thread is starting to irritate me. Not that it matters...

You know, I was curious about that as well, Rollo. Why on earth would it take almost half a million dollars to distribute a newsletter? That seems pretty fishy to me.

Where do you get the "distribute a newsletter", Scratch? The list on the post clearly states that the half mil was for "Publication and distribution."

How do you expect people to trust what you put forth when you misrepresent on the very thread you began?

[_Jason Bourne]

Where is the evidence, Jason? All I see from you is speculation and spin.

Personal experience in running a business.

Actually, you have taught *me*.

Wonderful

You asked for solid evidence and I provided it. And yet, that doesn't seem to be enough for you. Tell me: have you even bothered to look up the forms, as Rollo and I have? Surely you aren't making claims without having read the forms.....

I take your word about what the forms say. If you say you have looked at them I believe you. Ok. I agree. If the form says 20K for the chairman it looks like Dr Peterson got paid 20k. He offered another explanation. I noted a purely speculative position that it could be the 20K was paid to BYU-which is I believe what Dr. P indicated, for his time, and that the accountant could have still, very appropriately classified it as he did. But I do not know this unless I asked the accountant who prepared the 990. So you got me there.

The best assumption to make, based on the evidence at hand, is that DCP was paid $20,000 for apologetics after FARMS had an especially good year on the stock market.

So you are calling DCP a liar now. Right?

No. He has himself stated that he doesn't remember all the details.

No he said there is no question in his mind. He said that he WAS NOT paid 20k directly for his work as chairmen of FARMS. In other words, he did not get a W-2 for a salary and chairman.

[_Jason Bourne]

by the way, Tax returns are no signed under oath.

The Form 990 certainly is. I'm reading it right now. FARMS's 1999 Form 990 is signed by one Daniel Oswald as Executive Director, just under this statement:

Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return, including accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and belief, it is true, correct, and complete.

Sure sounds like an oath to me.

I stand corrected.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Where do you get the "distribute a newsletter", Scratch? The list on the post clearly states that the half mil was for "Publication and distribution."

"Printing and publications" on the 1998 Form 990 was $112,810. "Postage and shipping" was just $452.

[_Jersey Girl]

Here's a copy of what was posted.

The 1998 Form 990 (where DCP is reported to have received $20,400) lists "compensation of officers, directors, etc." separate and apart from "program services," which reflects a whopping $1,549,107 spent, including the following on other organizations/projects:

1. Research and Allocations to Scholars and Students: $508,021
2. Publication and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants: $475,669
3. Translation of Ancient Islamic Texts: $6,584
4. Operation of the Center for Electronic Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts: $558,833

Item 2 was in question. First off, you all are spitting in the proverbial wind. The accusation, as I read it, is that the dollar figure is suspect. Why? I've seen no indication on this thread what the suscribership was for fiscal year 1998, the frequency of distribution and later down the thread the accusation is reworked to the effect that it's far too great an amount to spend on "distributing a newsletter" when the line item clearly states the amount is for publication and distribution.

You can't get anywhere with the accusation unless and until you're able to produce the level subscribership was at during fiscal year 1998, the frequency of P&D (was it an annual newsletter or what?) and even then, you'd have to figure out how much publication costs were.

Do you see the dead end that this is?

[_Jersey Girl]

Where do you get the "distribute a newsletter", Scratch? The list on the post clearly states that the half mil was for "Publication and distribution."

"Printing and publications" on the 1998 Form 990 was $112,810. "Postage and shipping" was just $452.

Rollo,

I just copied the post. What post lists those figures?

Look, now you're talking about "printing and publications". What is that? Is it pamphlets? If not, why do you have (now) two figures for this?

Show me the difference between the line Item 2 (half million for P&D) in comparision to what you're now presenting. Are those two different things? Is the "printing and publications" inclusive of the newsletter? Do you know?

I don't see it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Here's your post again, Rollo:

The 1998 Form 990 (where DCP is reported to have received $20,400) lists "compensation of officers, directors, etc." separate and apart from "program services," which reflects a whopping $1,549,107 spent, including the following on other organizations/projects:

1. Research and Allocations to Scholars and Students: $508,021
2. Publication and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants: $475,669
3. Translation of Ancient Islamic Texts: $6,584
4. Operation of the Center for Electronic Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts: $558,833

So it appears the accountant did not include compensation to directors and officers in the money spent by FARMS on other matters.

What other post contradicts the above? I didn't see it.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Where do you get the "distribute a newsletter", Scratch? The list on the post clearly states that the half mil was for "Publication and distribution."

"Printing and publications" on the 1998 Form 990 was $112,810. "Postage and shipping" was just $452.

I just copied the post. What post lists those figures?

Look, now you're talking about "printing and publications". What is that? Is it pamphlets? If not, why do you have (now) two figures for this?

Show me the difference between the line Item 2 (half million for P&D) in comparision to what you're now presenting. Are those two different things? Is the "printing and publications" inclusive of the newsletter? Do you know?

I don't see it.

The total expense allocated to "Publications and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants" is $475,669. Part of this is made up of the $112K and $452 allocated to all activities and publications by FARMS. But the $475K allocation appears to include other expenses, such as general things like supplies, etc. But by far the biggest part of the $475K allocation (and other allocations in my list) is made up of "other salaries and wages," which total $1,033,031 for all activities (including the $475K allocated to publications and distribution of the newsletter).