The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

[_Pokatator]

A basic tenent of the church is that we receive no witness until after a trial of our faith. This is true of an investigator who puts Moronis promise to the test. they take that "leap of faith" and get on thier knees and pray. After the pondering and praying they are rewarded with a witness of the Holy Ghost, and they know of a surity the Church is true.

Fine except this Moroni Promise stuff never worked for me and for many others here. In fact I don't believe it works for anyone unless they just plain want it to.

Now, Gaz, you can give me the standard Mormon boilerplate answer of how I didn't really have a trial of faith, or have a leap of faith, or pray, or read, or fast, or repent, or be contrite, or pay, or obey or at least, I didn't do those things...... enough.

I bring her up because of a quote I recently read where she talks about what a relief it was to relax away from the church, since it had gone to find a new home in the rockies. She had a great deal of joy in her new life because she had been removed from the fire so to speak.

Exactly how I feel since leaving the Morg.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Would it be worth asking the class if there might be any "sweet" fruits of apostacy?

That might actually start an interesting discussion. You can't have that in church. The bottom line is you cannot be happy without the gospel in your life, period. It logically follows that there cannot be any sweet fruits of apostacy, or if there were, they only seem sweet on the outside until you partake of it and then discover it is rotten to the core.

[_Inconceivable]

Would it be worth asking the class if there might be any "sweet" fruits of apostacy?

That might actually start an interesting discussion. You can't have that in church. The bottom line is you cannot be happy without the gospel in your life, period. It logically follows that there cannot be any sweet fruits of apostacy, or if there were, they only seem sweet on the outside until you partake of it and then discover it is rotten to the core.

Interesting subject.

Several TBM's I've discussed my departure with, have brought up the notion that now I can do anything I want since I have no belief anymore. Most seem to say it with a little envy and even a hint of jealousy.

I think their comment stems from the allusion that if someone rejects the Mormon church, they reject what restricts them from indulging in antisocial behavior.

If there is no God there is no accountability. Therefore, no more laws, bridals and restrictions - so why not have fun, fun, fun.

I find their logic very presumptuous, narrow and condescending to myself as well as to the billions of good people that seek balance by living a life of human decency and contribution.

[_Gazelam]

Sorry I didn't respond to individual posts and just did a general response. I will try to repent a little later.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Gaz,

No need to apologize or repent. :-)

I'm just seriously curious if you understand the point I was trying to make and how you would respond to it.

Any thoughts?

~td~

[_Seven]

Several TBM's I've discussed my departure with, have brought up the notion that now I can do anything I want since I have no belief anymore. Most seem to say it with a little envy and even a hint of jealousy.

I think their comment stems from the allusion that if someone rejects the Mormon church, they reject what restricts them from indulging in antisocial behavior.

If there is no God there is no accountability. Therefore, no more laws, bridals and restrictions - so why not have fun, fun, fun.

I find their logic very presumptuous, narrow and condescending to myself as well as to the billions of good people that seek balance by living a life of human decency and contribution.

I agree.
I have had very similar things said to me during my former inactivity. I don't believe the people who made these comments to me were envious of my new freedom though. They were trying to put me down and prove to themselves that people who leave the church lose all their values and morals. I had one person assume that I must watch lewd movies and TV shows now and was shocked when I told them I didn't.
"Why not?" she said. "You don't believe the church is true anymore, and I would be watching those movies if I wasn't a Mormon." I don't believe she was sincere in that statement and was hoping to prove that you can't be a Christian or good person without Mormonism.

Sure there are some people who would be indulging in criminal activity or unethical behavior without their religion, but not the majority. in my opinion, most LDS are saying this because they need to make us into the evil apostate with no direction in life.

LDS take it personal when someone leaves the fold and I think it shakes them a bit. If we are living a virtuous life post Mormonism, that doesn't help their testimony.

[_Gazelam]

Hey Gaz,

No need to apologize or repent. :-)

I'm just seriously curious if you understand the point I was trying to make and how you would respond to it.

Any thoughts?

~td~

Dancer,

I do understand what your saying. I actually read a book that our own Roger Morrison wrote where he discussed that very thing. He wrote about how people are born into various family groups completely by chance and that we shouldent hold hard feelings or prejudices to another ethnic or social group. Our social, economic, and religious values are determined by chance, so how can we judge? That we basicly should respect others and stop all of our self righteous views and be more respectful of others values.

I do understand this viewpoint, and to a certain extent agree with it. Everyone has something to offer, and we all bring unique viewpoints and life experiences to any group we interact with. I made the point in priesthood just last week that if we are to honor our priesthood we need to not focus on the flaws in others and instead build upon others strengths and compliment them often. Not an easy thing to do when sarcasm is so often the rule of the day.

That being said, it is the basic tenent of all religions that we share a common parentage. What we want from true religion is to understand what the Angels taught Adam. we want to know how to properly redeem ourselves from the Fall. Non judeo-christian religions might call it something else, but its the same thing. How do we make ourselves clean?

Mormonism teaches this better than any other, and they have the Spirit of the Lord and a line and understanding of authority to go along with it. Why do the majority of Mormons who leave the church find it nearly impossible to sign on with any other church? Because they understand how plain and simple the foundation really is.

Our missionaries just need to get out and teach it, and its obviously effective, with the church growing from 2 million to 12 million in the last 30 years. Its teaching are true and its doctrines are sound. It tastes good to those who hear it,after all a living flame is far more appealing than stories of a fire that used to burn.

[_Gazelam]

Inconceivable,

You may have a unique perspective that most Mormons don't. This is an apostate board. You've discovered that amonst this group, we went looking for something to decrease doubt on the outset. When we finally decided to look and check sources, we left. Most apostates don't seem to be what your leaders say they are. Think about it.

What is amazing to me is that, in spite of being a regular contributor here, the questions that we have raised don't seem to bother you much - yet. When that time comes, most likely you will seek out the more accurate information that has always been available - and then you'll leave the church too. However, I have no doubt you will remain the same decent guy you are today.

I have yet to figure out how in looking for information on church history people can lose faith. Maybe you approach it from a different standpoint or something. I don't know. Apostates are regular people. And by that I mean they come in all shapes and sizes. Some have had their feeling hurt, some have a doctrinal misunderstanding, some just never found out how to recognize the Spirit.

What accurate information am I missing? I have Brodies book in Hardcover. I own a copy of Heaven and Hell by Swedenborg in hardcover also. I tried to buy a copy of Quinns magic book, but they wanted like $116 dollars for it, so I passed. But I understand whats in it. These things don't bother me. They are 3 persons opinions as they see things from their view. Brodies book really isn't that bad. Swedenborg hit on a few interesting points. Quinn recognized that Folk Magic played a big part in peoples lives in early america. It played a large role in my wifes family as they came from the hils of Arkansas just a few generations back. Her father can hold some interesting discussions on the old ways because his Father was brought up in it.

Its a big world with alot of culture in it, but at the end of the day we are all supposed to leave these things behind and embrace the culture of heaven. The church is being taught in 160 different countries, and all those people have their own spiritual upbringing that they have to deal with as they learn true religion. Joseph Smith was no different.

I know that the Father and The Son appeared to him, and I know that what they taught him and trained him in were true laws and principles. Not because I was brought up in the church, but becasue God himself told me so personally. I have a solid foundation of spiritual bedrock to stand on and a firm position to view the world from, and everything I study only further strengthens it.

I don't know or understand what sent you away, but its really to bad that you lost your footing. Come back.

[_Inconceivable]

I know that the Father and The Son appeared to him, and I know that what they taught him and trained him in were true laws and principles. Not because I was brought up in the church, but becasue God himself told me so personally. I have a solid foundation of spiritual bedrock to stand on and a firm position to view the world from, and everything I study only further strengthens it.

I don't know or understand what sent you away, but its really to bad that you lost your footing. Come back.

Gaz,

I knew the Father and The Son appeared to him (etc.)

I know it just as clearly as you do because I was told by the same source.

You want to understand how this can be so when we currently differ in our conclusions, give the entire thread a read:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8453

There have been no TBMs that will seriously and thoughtfully engage this subject. Not one. Why don't you tell me why.

7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 4:7)

[_The Nehor]

I think you are really in denial. . . What you claim really does not exist for most wards. Maybe it does for yours.

One of the basic tenets of both Internet Mormonism and Chapel Mormonism is that each denies the existence of the other.

One of the basic tenets of apostates is that they deny that they're sinners.

Wow, this kind of labeling is fun.