Problems With Christianity

[_antishock8]

I'll answer Jason's question:

Q:

Why does the omnipotent perfect God of Christianity require blood in order to forgive sin?

A: Because their god is a freakin' psychopath.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason I am unsure why you feel so sure of the God demanding blood thing. After all it is God who bleed. You are being very certain about something with very shaky foundation. Are you referring to some scriptural view? what? Are you referring to some theological tradtion? Where?

Demanded blood from whom for heaven sakes? And who was it who demanded Jesus blood? It was sinners not God.

It seems futile to try and explain why God demands blood when everythng I know and think says this is not the case.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Is not the basis of Christianity this? God is Holy and perfect. God cannot look on sin or allow sin in his presence with any tolerance. The wages of sin are death. God said to Adam that if he sinned he would die. Sin created not only physical death but spiritual death due to separation from God. To pay the price for sin someone has to shed blood. The law of Moses and the related sacrifices were all built on the idea that the shedding of blood was needed to obtain God's forgiveness. Ultimately the price of blood would be paid by His son. We then obtain that forgiveness by repenting and accepting that sacrifice.

You need scripture to back this up? Read your Bible man. it is all there.

My question is simple. Why could God not just forgive without all this? Why did there have to be a sacrifice like this?

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Jason, you asked:

[Why does the omnipotent perfect God of Christianity require blood in order to forgive sin?
/quote]

I will attempt to answer, but first... Do I correctly sense facetiousness in your query?
Roger
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No. It is a serious question. I wonder why God cannot just forgive us without needing a sacrifice, even if it was him or his son.

[_Seven]

Jason, is an omnipotent God bound by law? or why would he be if he is all powerful? Is that what you are really asking?

If someone murdered your family, what would be appropriate punishment for the sinner in your eyes? When would justice be met for their crimes?
God doesn't demand blood, the law requires it. We require it of those who commit crimes against us here on earth and many desire and expect justice to be served in hell of the wicked. There must be a fixed punishment attached to any broken law of God. Because of this there could not be complete forgiveness or hope for fallen man to be saved if someone did not pay the complete price attached to these laws. We could never meet those demands of justice on our own and be reconciled to God. It would never be enough.
Mercy does save us but only after the demands of justice were paid for our crimes by Christ's atoning sacrifice.

Elder Oaks: http://ldsces.org/general%20authority%2 ... 0Oaks.html


Unlike the changeable laws of man, the laws of God are fixed and permanent, “irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world” (D&C 130:20).

According to eternal law, the consequences that follow from the justice of God are severe and permanent. When a commandment is broken, a commensurate penalty is imposed. This happens automatically. Punishments prescribed by the laws of man only follow the judge’s action, but under the laws of God the consequences and penalties of sin are inherent in the act. “There is a law given, and a punishment affixed,” the prophet Alma taught, and “justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment” (Alma 42:22). “And thus we see,” Alma explained, “that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence” (v. 14). Abinadi taught that the Lord himself “cannot deny justice when it has its claim” (Mosiah 15:27). By itself, justice is uncompromising.

The justice of God holds each of us responsible for our own transgressions and automatically imposes the penalty. This reality should permeate our understanding, and it should influence all our teachings about the commandments of God and the effect of individual transgressions.

In keeping with the legal traditions of man, many seem to want justice. It is true that justice is a friend that will protect us from persecution by the enemies of righteousness. But justice will also see that we receive what we deserve, and that is an outcome I fear. I cannot achieve my eternal goals on the basis of what I deserve. Though I try with all my might, I am still what King Benjamin called an “unprofitable servant” (see Mosiah 2:21). To achieve my eternal goals, I need more than I deserve. I need more than justice.

This realization reminds me of an event that occurred in the law firm where I began practicing law almost thirty-five years ago. A Chicago politician had been indicted for stuffing ballot boxes. A partner in our firm told me how this politician came to his office to ask us to represent him in his criminal trial.

“What can you do for me?” he asked. Our partner replied that if this client retained our firm to conduct his defense, we would investigate the facts, research the law, and present the defense at the trial. “In this way,” the lawyer concluded, “we will get you a fair trial.”

The politician promptly stood up, put on his hat, and stalked out of the office. Pursuing him down the hall, the lawyer asked what he had said to offend him. “Nothing.” “Then why are you leaving?” he asked. “The odds aren’t good enough,” the politician replied.

That man would not retain our firm to represent him in court because we would only promise him a fair trial, and he knew he needed more than that. He knew he was guilty, and he could only be saved from prison by something more favorable to him than justice.

Can justice save us? Can man in and of himself overcome the spiritual death all mankind suffers from the Fall, which we bring upon ourselves anew by our own sinful acts? No! Can we “work out our own salvation?” Never, worlds without end! “By the law no flesh is justified,” Lehi explained (2 Nephi 2:5). “Salvation doth not come by the law alone,” Abinadi warned (Mosiah 13:28). Shakespeare had one of his characters declare this truth: “In the course of justice, none of us should see salvation: we do pray for mercy” (The Merchant of Venice, act 4, sc. 1, lines 199–200).

[_huckelberry]

Hi Roger, We both understand the generic meaning of the word mystery. I was considering associations. I suspected you associated the word was with suppression of questions and enquiry one way or the other. I was trying to explain I mean the exact opposite. I was trying to imagine the correct punishement for religious authorities who use the precious word for evil intent like suppress the questions of youth. Perhaps tar and feather and run out town. Perhaps overly painfull and not long lasting enough. Perhaps banishment to Utah. But I have relatives in Utah. Perpaps kicked in the rear and tossed in a mudhole for each misuse untill it stops.

My relationship to the word mystery is reflected in the Song of Solomon.

[_Jersey Girl]

No. It is a serious question. I wonder why God cannot just forgive us without needing a sacrifice, even if it was him or his son.

That's easy to figure out.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Huck, I'm in this:

Hi Roger, We both understand the generic meaning of the word mystery. I was considering associations. I suspected you associated the word was with suppression of questions and enquiry one way or the other. that seems to be the dictionary/generic meaning I was trying to explain I mean the exact opposite. Then might you be using the wrong word? I was trying to imagine the correct punishement for religious authorities who use the precious word for evil intent like suppress the questions of youth. Perhaps tar and feather and run out town. Perhaps overly painfull and not long lasting enough... I don't know that punishment helps in many matters??? Knowledge, and the intelligence to grasp & apply it is what moves humanity forward; punishment, while it may seem to have immediate results--and gratifies the punisher--it is a poor means of social remediation...

My relationship to the word mystery is reflected in the Song of Solomon.

Not knowing what "Song of Solomon" you had in mind, nor informed beforehand as to where your mind was wandering... "Ya gotta Keep-It-Simple-Sweety..."
Roger
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[_Roger Morrison]

"Jason Bourne" asked:

"Why does the omnipotent perfect God of Christianity require blood in order to forgive sin?"


RM: I will attempt to answer, but first... Do I correctly sense facetiousness in your query?

Jason: "No. It is a serious question. I wonder why God cannot just forgive us without needing a sacrifice, even if it was him or his son."

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Our personally held premises may make this difficult. Let's see...

My premise: "God" is the power/force/organizer-of-matter/elements--whatever--that put us into orbit, so to speak. Doing so by laws (of the Universe) that are dependable and inviolable without some sort of consequence. Which might be amazingly wonderful or horrendously disasterous...

This "God" is not a "forgiving" nor a Loving "God" but rather a just "God" of Universal order. Order about which we know very little at the present time, but more than we knew yesteryear.

Yesteryear-humans had fears, needs, questions and concerns that had no answers to be found in their primitive knowledge banks. These folks weren't stupid. They used the no-name-scientific-method, trial & error, to evolve materially beyond their omni-God to whom they attributed some of the right things, but for the wrong reasons.

Universal "God" neither blesses nor curses; rewards nor punishes. It is this "God" --to keep religion involved--that Jesus referred to when he told the scribes et-al that, "...you do not know "God"..." Unfortunatel many religious types still don't know the real "God" and continue to pay homage to and have expectations of--and from--a "God" that never existed. Except in minds and to fill the voids in their "primitive knowledge banks."

Of course much of this runs contrary to our Judeo-Christian tradition. And, as I pondered your sincere question: "Why does the omnipotent perfect God of Christianity require blood in order to forgive sin?"

I must respectfully suggest Jason, there never was a Judeo-Christian "God" as imagined and presented by Judeo-Christianism. Blood sacrifice never forgive ANY sin! Sheep-blood, Goat-blood, Pigeon-blood, Wheat-cerrnals nor Human/Divine-blood...

So... "Why does the omnipotent perfect God of Christianity require blood in order to forgive sin?" IT DOESN"T!
Roger
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[_huckelberry]

Roger, when I started my computer google listed the headline, In plane crash loss of momentum is still a mystery.

Now should I figure that because it is a mystery that questions and inquiry are beings suppressed? On the other hand should I figure some people are diligently trying to learn all the can about the mystery.

I suppose different people may react differently to a mystery. Some may have the first reaction some the other.

Perhaps I sounded serious about punishment for suppressing inquiry with the word mystery. I was not being literal just expressing my disapproval.(and hoping for a tiny touch of humor) I was searching for ways to emphasis an interpretation that says mysteries are invitations to learn. It seems we both have a positive view of learning.

Song, refering to the book in the Bible.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Huck, me thinks this is a "win-win"... Simply a problem of two great minds running in different directions on the same track to find the mystery of life...

Song, refering to the book in the Bible.

Really Bro. gimee a bit-a-credit eh... I knowd it was in da book!!! I jus didn't know da title a da song yew was thinkin'on

Roger
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