The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Gazelam wrote:Jersey,

How old is the oldest?


About 16 now.
.
.
.
.
.


You know what I'm thinking here, Gaz. I wonder if you all could get with the kids school counselors and heads up them to the living conditions? There's a slight problem here with confidentiality however, it might be worth a call or two. If you have siblings in their area, maybe they could arrange a visit with the school(s) principal and counselors?

They wouldn't be able to share with you any information collected on behalf of the children in their files, but you guys could possibly have some of the missing pieces of a puzzle that the school(s) are trying to put together regarding any behavior incidents they might be seeing. (I'm doing alot of prediction here)

Anywhooo...get someone there with the school(s) and give them what you have in the way of information. If the kids haven't connected with their school counselors, this could be the thing that helps them make contact.

Then...(I'm watching TV in the background, thus the hesitations here) okay, once you get the information to the school(s), it could help the kids connect with the counselors and give the counselors a reason to meet with them on a weekly (and as-needed) basis. If it happens that the kids divulge evidence of potential abuse/neglect, the counselors can report it themselves and should the situation become urgent/threatening, the kids could be put in foster care (which isn't always the best situation but if they're in danger, it's worth a try).

What I'm saying is that you guys can help handle the situation by giving the schools what THEY need to handle it.

Get what I mean?

It's not a magic bullet...it's a start though.

???
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Gazelam »

Jersey,

It is my understanding that currently all of her kids are getting psycological couseling from the state. Some of her kids are even being medicated.

Im not aware of all of the details. I get my information from my mom when she chooses to divulge these things to me. I try to stay out of it all.

Post traumatic stress disorders? I dunno.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Gazelam wrote:Jersey,

It is my understanding that currently all of her kids are getting psycological couseling from the state. Some of her kids are even being medicated.

Im not aware of all of the details. I get my information from my mom when she chooses to divulge these things to me. I try to stay out of it all.

Post traumatic stress disorders? I dunno.

Gaz


Did you notice that I jumped on this when I saw that you were talking about kids? Heck, if that ain't me, I don't exist! :-)

It sounds like your Mom is the one absorbing all of this junk. I could be wrong, but just based on these current exchanges with me, that's what it seems like. I think instead of trying to stay out of it, you could get into it somewhat. That would alleviate some of your Mom's stress and call me crazy (do it and I'll smack ya) but I think you could provide some positive impact here even long distance.

I think positive impact is ALWAYS possible. No, I'm not a dreamer...I KNOW it's possible.

I wonder how the state counseling services got started? How are they getting it, who's taking them to their sessions? I'd still try to get with the school(s) and I say that because the schools have access to the kids on a daily basis. (Editing: If the kids are on meds, the school likely knows about it. Maybe the schools made a report that initiated the counseling...just a thought. You could try to find that out.)

PSTD? I wouldn't know. I could envision that the children have been subjected to uncertainty, insecurity, an unreliable parent, unreliable living conditions, embarrassment, disappointment...

I was just thinking about children of alcoholics here. Not that your sister is an alcoholic but she could be functioning with the same sorts of dysfunctional dynamics...anyway...thinking about kids of alcoholics, I read this book several years ago and just one example was the kid whose father came home stinking drunk and drove the car up on the front lawn. What happened in that case was the mother or kids moving the car to the driveway so as not to tick off the father or having the neighbors see it in the morning.

What I'm saying (and sloppily so...I'm tired) is that kids in a situation like that have to do alot of taking up for the parent to avoid public embarrassment, sometimes have to make stuff up (lie) to cover up what's going on in their home, encounter huge disappointments on account of a parent who forgets important dates/events, doesn't show up for school conferences, soccer games, can't bring friends home because the house might be trashed from one end to the other, isn't there to transport them when needed, they have no control over it...and what you end up with is...

one PISSED OFF kid!

I mention this because you said the two older kids had anger issues. They could have depression, anxiety and a ton of stuff they're dealing with...thus the medications you mention.

I need to think more about this. I'll be back.

Jersey
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Food for thought before I totally crash...

Its not a case of any kind of mental disorder. Its a genetic disposition of that strain of DNA to be rotten.


Uh, Gaz? That's a mental disorder.

:mrgreen:
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Gaz,

Shes an open book.


Not necessarily. I guarantee there is more to the story.

She has no mental health issues,


You have no idea this is the case, in fact I would give you a 99.99% chance, that if you correctly describe her, she does indeed have a mental health issue.

the only abuse she ever received was from her husband she refused to leave and the drug dealers who wanted their money her husband had stolen.


Again, you have absolutely NO idea this is the case. Lots and lots of women don't share certain types of abuse.

She was raised in the Beaver Cleaver household of familial love with every opportunity anyone could ask for. The only thing dysfuntional in that household was her.


Family dynamics are comlicated. Your home may have been a great place for you but doesn't mean there weren't some very unfortunate dynamics/experiences for the other children in your family. I'm not suggesting your parents were bad or anything along those lines, I'm just saying children are different and you have no idea of all the details of your sister's life.

I wrote:
truly do think some of your beliefs (which in my opinion are in some ways at odds with those of the LDS church) to which you hold so dearly are the very things blocking your understanding of life and behavior.



Gaz responded:
No, on the contrary. The only problem I have with my beliefs is my inability to apply them properly in regards to myself. They are a constant reminder of how much self improvement I have to do.


I'm not just talking about your inability to show human decency and concern for another. I'm talking about your stated belief that a person can be a "spawn of Satan," a, "bad seed", "rotten from the womb". These sorts of ideas are nonsensical and demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of human nature and behavior.

Imagine all of the hardships youve had dealt to you in your life by twists of fate turned around to where they were purposefully inflicted on you. That is what it is like to have this creature in your life. No matter what you councel and advise, the worst occurs.


Gaz, I have seen situations that make your sister look like Mother Teresa. You mistakenly seem to believe that a person will magically change with the proper advice. Advice is not what is needed to deal with those struggling as is your sister.

Again, you seem to lack a very basic understanding of human behavior.

I take no pleasure in her misery,


OK, let me rephrase... her future misery.

because her harships affect my parenst both emotionaly and economically. I do revel in the thought of her finally seeing the scope of what she has sewn and the place she has earned for herself in the eternities due to her selfishness.


Gaz, isn't there something in the TRI along the lines of, hmmm... "anything wrong with your relationship with your family"? You know the question I am talking about?

How do you pretend to have the power of God while harboring such hatred? How do you go to the temple reveling in the future joy of seeing a family member receive eternal pain?

I am not in any way suggesting there are not reasons to feel angry. Of course there needs to be boundaries. Of course people need to be held accountable and responsible for their behaviors. But your extreme hatred seems at odds with one who claims to not only be a disciple of Christ but who has the very power of god.

Do you recall the New Testament teaching regarding who has the greater sin.. the one who sinned or the one who doesn't forgive the sinner?

And I am with Jersey Girl... if children are being hurt you get involved. No question about this!

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Yoda

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Yoda »

Gaz wrote:It wasn't a derogatory term, it was a definitive one.

Ill take your other comments under advisement.


No, Gaz, the term "crackwhore", is not simply a definitive term. I doubt, that even if your wife, or one of your daughters, were addicted to crack, you would refer to them in this way...at least I sincerely hope not.

There are many other things you could have said that would have conveyed the seriousness of your sister's addiction. The term, "crackwhore", is certainly not a term of endearment.

I hope that you took my other comments in the spirit they were given. For the record, no, I don't think you are "an arrogant prick", as Ray suggested.

I think you are misguided about this issue, and that, having been so close to the situation for so long, and watching your parents go through the pain they have gone through in trying to support your sister, that your vision is skewed.

Jersey Girl has given some excellent advice here. So has Harmony and TD. I respect these ladies tremendously. They all have very strong backgrounds in counseling. Jersey Girl's specialty is child counseling and psychology, in particular.

I don't have a formal background in counseling, but as a teacher, and a mother of three, counseling goes with the territory to some degree. :wink:

I know this is something you have dealt with for a long time, and that there are needs to vent. Frankly, I think you were doing more venting here than anything else.

When digging down to actual feelings, it hurts too much. Anger is a much easier way to project things so that they don't immediately wound you emotionally.

Jersey Girl has come up with some excellent suggestions as far as the children involved in the situation are concerned.

It might also be wise for your children to have some counseling as well, if they have been exposed to their cousins, and have been privy to any of your sister's antics. That can be traumatic for any child to witness, even from a distance.

OK...you have endured unsolicited advice from a host of Moms here. :lol:

Love you, Gaz. If you need to talk, PM me anytime.

Liz
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _truth dancer »

Going back to catch up on various posts.

Heres one of my favorite stories in regards to my Fathers Mother.

She was coming to stay for a visit. My mom knew how things would be and wore herself down scrubbing the house top to bottom and getting things ready.

The morning after she arrived my Moms in the kitchen cooking a nice southern breakfast with all the trimmings. Grandma gets up and comes up the stairs and stands at the top surveying things. After looking around she walks to the refrigerator and kneels down, removing the baseplate she retrieves the drain pan from underneath. She then gets up and goes to the sink and washes it, then puts it back.

My sister isn't as intelligent or as cunning, but is just as sinister.


Sinister? Evil? This is one of your favorite stories that exemplify the rottenness of the family evil trait?

Are you kidding me?

Quirky, rude, mean, or odd perhaps. But evil? This is what you come up with as evidence for sinister behavior. WOW!

You need to spend a day with me Gaz, and see the real world. On the list of evil deeds, cleaning a refrigerator drip pan is about 27,000,000 down on the list.

(On a side note, did you ever think that maybe your grandmother had the belief that you always help clean your daughters home when you visit and the drip pan was the only thing she could find)?

Its not a case of any kind of mental disorder. Its a genetic disposition of that strain of DNA to be rotten.


Really? You know of some gene that makes people rotten and Satanic, you know the DNA of Satan?

You do know that mental health issues have a genetic component right?

Gaz, you may not be able to help your sister but you can help yourself and move beyond your cruelty and hatred.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Gaz, you've been given a lot to think about. One of the marvels of our new-and-improved world--that you were able to share your pain, and that others, 1,000s of miles away, were able to respond, as they chose to do...

I generally concure with the "Three Wise Women from Venus". Then of course you have the "Guys From Mars" who, generally speaking, run to the defense of a woman in distress. In this case your sister...

I specifically concure with TD--YOU CANNOT KNOW your sister's heart, fears, anxieties nor especially her experiences, from day-one, and their conceptualizing of behavior patterns; she might not even be aware of them...

Interesting how the women here, and my wife at home, looked at you Grandma's behavior--re the frig-pan--seeing totally different reasons/motivations than do I...

One last (?;-) question: Coming as you do from a somewhat typical LDS background, was Grandma a Mormon? If yes, BIC? From what area?

Roger, over...
*
*
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Seven
_Emeritus
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:52 pm

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Seven »

Hi Gazelam,
I am so sorry to hear of your family problems. :cry:


"Gazelam"
My sister is evil. She has constantly sought since childhood to surround herself with misery and drama, this despite in every case someone being there to tell her not to do this or that.


Do you really believe this? When I see people who are harming themselves and others from their bad choices, I try to remember that they were once a beautiful innocent and helpless newborn baby. Your sister is a child of God. How could she be born evil?


slept with strangers for their drugs (i believe the term is allowing oneself to be "doubleteamed"). The list goes on.


Your sister is trapped by her drug addiction and it's not really her doing these things. They become a different person and the drugs ensnare them. That sweet spirit she was born with is in there still. Hate the drugs, the addiction, her bad behavior, but don't hate your sister. I am currently going through a similar situation with a few family members addicted to drugs. They can be so hateful, bitter, paranoid, verbally abusive, and dangerous to themselves and society. There have even been subtle threats that one person wants to harm me and I fear for my family safety. But I love this person and know the drug has partially made him this way. He also became hateful and bitter because he was unable to forgive people from the past. This is why he turned to drugs in coping with the pain and his own personal misery of not truly forgiving those who harmed him. But I have hope that this person will find healing through Jesus Christ's atonement and know God loves him.


I know at some point God will require me to forgive her, but at this point I savor the thought of her rotting in hell for all eternity.


When your sister repents, she will suffer greatly for the harm she has caused others, but Christ paid the debt for her sins too. If she chooses to meet the conditions of Christ's atonement by repenting and forgiving all those who have caused her pain, she will be in heaven. You are the one who will be in a "hell" for hating her and desiring for a child of God to not return home. Without charity, you will not be allowed in the Kingdom of God.
You are not sinless and should never believe you are better than her. When you forgive, your truly love the way Christ loves us. Be grateful that you were not born with the mortal challenges she was. Be grateful that you did not inherit the same personality weaknesses as your Grandma. Have you ever considered that God allows this suffering to teach you the principle of charity?

Why would you ever desire for her to rot in hell? She's already in hell. "wickedness never was happiness." It just baffles me how anyone could think that a person living that kind of life deserves to suffer for eternity. As if living the gospel is misery and you deserve a great reward for all your hard work because those wicked people did nothing but pleasure themselves. Anyone who has lived that kind of life that your sister has and repented will tell you it was hell. Happiness is found in living the principles of Christ.

I think you are just venting some anger and hope this isn't seriously how you feel. Until she hits bottom from the drug addiction, nothing will change. I have a few relatives that abused children, ended up in prison, etc. from drugs. (prison was actually the best thing for them to get clean) All of them suffered with depression and have a family history of mental disease. Most criminals do.
Once they were clean, they said how much it meant to know they were loved and supported, even though they had rejected it during their struggle. You must love her so she knows there is hope.


I can only weep for her poor children who have had to live through all of this. They all hate her and can't wait to get away from her, and cry when they have to leave my parents to go back to her house. She lives in Illinois.


That's heart wrenching.
You need to do everything in your power to protect these kids.
I had a 12 year old relative try to hang himself not to long ago. Both his parents are drug addicts and have severely neglected these beautiful kids. The 3 kids ages 6 to 12 took care of these 2 heroin and crack addicts and became the parents. They did everything to keep their family together. Thankfully the kind grandparents of the husband are taking care of them all now. Both these parents grew up in the LDS "Cleaver Home" from all appearances but there are always dirty secrets in every family history. We learned that this girl had been molested by her own father (all her sisters were) when she was young. Her husband became hooked on drugs because he has an obsessive/addictive personality, was rebellious and experimented in high school.

You can't say for certain that there isn't something from her childhood that caused your sister to cope with her pain by using drugs or sex and the miserable path she chose. Not saying it was from your parents, but something that she either can't forgive herself for or something that damaged her in the early years.


My sister is innactive because she is the spawn of Satan.


I can see how hard it is for you to understand why your sister has fallen into a miserable lifestyle when you believe that you both had the same loving parents and ideal upbringing. But you have to keep in mind that your experiences can't possibly be the same. Each of us are born with different personality traits and weaknesses. Just the order that we are born into in the family drastically changes what a child experiences. My parents would be unrecognizable from the way they parented the oldest child (me) compared to the youngest sibling.

It is very common for certain personalities to not cope well with the fear and guilt instilled into us about sin from our LDS upbringing. Was she the type to dwell and worry over things? It is also very common in devout LDS homes for kids to feel a lot of pressure to be perfect and beat themselves up when they fail. Just wondering if maybe she has trouble forgiving herself for mistakes and has lost all hope in salvation.


I have a relative who is a twin. He had an abusive childhood (both parents were very active Mormons who had strong testimonies of the restored gospel) but some of the siblings were totally unaffected by it. His own twin sister had an entirely different experience and can't understand why her brother remembers things so horribly. Three of the six kids lived very normal happy lives, one even served as a Bishop and by all appearances seem emotionally healthy.
The other three boys were screwed up their entire life. One suffered from depression, drug addiction, never could hold a job or get along with co workers, and even suicidal thoughts, the other ended up in Prison for molesting a young girl and has the mind of a ten year old (this boy and the other were raped by a relative), and the last one suffered most of his life with bitterness & depression, suicidal threats over his childhood of neglect, poverty, and abuse. He is now addicted to Rx drugs and has disowned half his children.
You can't tell me that those three boys were born evil. Each of those kids had different experiences. The two girls were not abused as much as the boys but they also had personalities that kept them from being as harmed by it. They were able to brush off things very easily and forget most of their bad experiences. (with the exception of one girl being severely obese and using food to self medicate)

But if you sat this whole family down to hear of their childhood, half of them would give a different account of their home environment and give contrasting stories. Some would even say they had a loving happy home. Much of that is how they perceived it and how their personality differences helped them cope with it.
Our personality traits STRONGLY influence how we react to experiences.

I highly recommend these two books for better understanding of what motivates us to make the choices we do and we react so differently to the same experiences. It might help you to have more empathy for your sister.
This one is written by a Mormon & it changed my life:
The Color Code

This one is great for raising kids. If our love tank is not filled the right way, it can have very negative consequences. It is so important for parents to tailor their parenting to the child's personality needs.
Five Love Languages for Children

I know what you are going through. It's a very helpless feeling when the person does not want to change and does not believe they are doing anything wrong. All you can do is love them and hope they hit bottom & repent. Protecting those kids is the most important thing right now.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Re: The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

Post by _Sam Harris »

Gaz,

Did your sister get some opportunity that you were not able to get when you both were young, that you feel should have benefitted her (and wonder why it didn't), and would have benefitted you had you gotten it?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Post Reply