Michael Ash blames "naïve" church members for apostasy

[_why me]

Many spiritual manifestations occurred at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.

For example Elijah and Elias.
One of them (take your pick) a prophet, the other is one of the many translation error of the KJV.
And you present this "event" as history.

by the way this "pair" in not unique in the D&C.

I did not say that. Look again to see where it came from.

[_why me]

To paraphrase Thomas Payne, what Joseph Smith was told by God was revelation. What we were told by Joseph Smith was hearsay. Consider this hearsay as you would consider any other hearsay.

If Emma Smith couldn't trust Joseph to keep his pants on while she was out of town on a shopping trip, couldn't trust him not to "marry" and boink the hired help, or her best friends, or the wives of some of his most prominent followers, then why should we trust him when he said he saw God?

But then again she never said that her husband was a fraud. And she taught her children to believe in the Book of Mormon and in the Bible. But yes, she had a polygamy problem and yet, they still exchanged loving letters to each other.

[_why me]

Here is a harmony test: The next time you are asked to sustain the GA's such Thomas S. Monson, raise your hand in opposition and claim you own inspiration. Repeat the exercise with the Apostles and the Seventy. Lets see what happens to your inspiration.

Why would I do that? I sustain Pres Monson and the rest of the GAs too. Do you think to sustain a leader, a member has to abdicate their own inspiration and salvation to them? You are sorely mistaken, if that is what you think. And the member who is foolish enough to do that is not following either the prophet or Christ's gospel.

Well okay lets do test number two: In relief society as you begin to teach from the manual, announce that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet who could not keep his pants on. Also, say a few other choice things that may not be that positive about the guy. And then claim personal revelation and begin to speak openly about Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet based on your own inspiration. Lets see what happens. I am sure that your own personal revelation will hold a lot of weight. Good luck.

[_why me]

I totally disagree with the premise other than this. Of course I canont prove whether or not Joseph Smith saw God. But I can look at his life and decide before I pray about it whether he should be trusted or not.

So we can now claim that my original statement was not grade school, right? But right in line with some church historians may actually think and believe.

[_Paracelsus]

[*quote="why me"]
Many spiritual manifestations occurred at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.[*/quote]

For example Elijah and Elias.
One of them (take your pick) a prophet, the other is one of the many translation error of the KJV.
And you present this "event" as history.

by the way this "pair" in not unique in the D&C.

I did not say that. Look again to see where it came from.

OK, it was from http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... hurch.html

Erroneuosly, I expected you agreed with it. Do you agree?

[_Mercury]

Many spiritual manifestations occurred at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.

The only spirit that was manifested at the kirtland temple was the copious ammounts of wine everyone was guzzling after long periods of fasting.

A high rate of suggestability and a magic worldview produced the visions but the catalyst was alcohol.

You fast for days and then down a fifth of good ol country whiskey and you will see some whacked out stuff too!

http://www.whymormons.net/2008/04/alcohol-mormon-temples.html

Speaking of the endowment event, William Harris gives us this account: "In the evening, they met for the endowment. The fast was then broken by eating light wheat bread, and drinking as much wine as they saw proper. Smith knew well how to infuse the spirit which they expected to receive; so he encouraged the brethren to drink freely, telling them that the wine was consecrated, and would not make them drunk.....they began to prophecy, pronounce blessings upon their friends, and curses on their enemies. If I should be so unhappy as to go to the regions of the damned, I would never expect to hear language more awful, or more becoming the infernal pit, than was uttered that night."

They were drunk off their american gypsy asses!

[_Jason Bourne]

Well okay lets do test number two: In relief society as you begin to teach from the manual, announce that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet who could not keep his pants on. Also, say a few other choice things that may not be that positive about the guy. And then claim personal revelation and begin to speak openly about Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet based on your own inspiration. Lets see what happens. I am sure that your own personal revelation will hold a lot of weight. Good luck.

Her personal revelation would continue to hold total weight to her. Of course it most likely would not for others in the room. Nor with he leaders. And in our Church, where dissent is highly frowned upon, she might be given the boot.

But of course you know that. And you know that she is not making the point you are. So your scenario is irrelevant.

[_Jason Bourne]

So we can now claim that my original statement was not grade school, right? But right in line with some church historians may actually think and believe.

Nope. I think the Church historians are in error as well at least as far as Church history not being relevant to a testimony. Was that the Bitton article you used? If yes I have read it in the past and totally disagree with it.

[_Morrissey]

To paraphrase Thomas Payne, what Joseph Smith was told by God was revelation. What we were told by Joseph Smith was hearsay. Consider this hearsay as you would consider any other hearsay.

If Emma Smith couldn't trust Joseph to keep his pants on while she was out of town on a shopping trip, couldn't trust him not to "marry" and boink the hired help, or her best friends, or the wives of some of his most prominent followers, then why should we trust him when he said he saw God?

Joseph Smith had an established pattern of lying, deceitful dealing, and acting out in secret (in the shadows). In any other context and with any other person (aside from, perhaps, other high ranking Mormon leaders), this pattern would, I think, cause even the most devout true believer to, at least, question the person's credibility, particularly if this person made rather extraordinary claims for himself.

Yet in Joseph Smith's case, such behavior is overlooked, excused, or positioned as "training wheels" for his Prophetic calling. More, believers will often flip the issue around and question the credibility (not to mention morality) of skeptics for daring to question Smith's credibility.

An example of how dogmatic religious thinking warps an otherwise reasonable person's common sense and moral compass.

[_Paracelsus]

Many spiritual manifestations occurred at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.

The only spirit that was manifested at the kirtland temple was the copious ammounts of wine everyone was guzzling after long periods of fasting.

A high rate of suggestability and a magic worldview produced the visions but the catalyst was alcohol.

You fast for days and then down a fifth of good ol country whiskey and you will see some whacked out stuff too!

http://www.whymormons.net/2008/04/alcohol-mormon-temples.html

Speaking of the endowment event, William Harris gives us this account: "In the evening, they met for the endowment. The fast was then broken by eating light wheat bread, and drinking as much wine as they saw proper. Smith knew well how to infuse the spirit which they expected to receive; so he encouraged the brethren to drink freely, telling them that the wine was consecrated, and would not make them drunk.....they began to prophecy, pronounce blessings upon their friends, and curses on their enemies. If I should be so unhappy as to go to the regions of the damned, I would never expect to hear language more awful, or more becoming the infernal pit, than was uttered that night."

They were drunk off their american gypsy asses!

OK, I found it.
From http://www.answers.com/topic/spirit
...
3. Spirit The Holy Spirit.
...
14. spirits An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor.
Sometimes the english language can be tricky. (sometimes my personality is )

by the way how many is a fifth of good ol country whiskey ?
Ps. please don't forget Elias !