Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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IHAQ
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:38 am
I think it’s fair to consider patterns of behavior. Having not studied the material, I don’t know how strong the evidence for a pattern is.
From tapirriders link
A book exploring the life and teachings of Russell M. Nelson, current President of the Mormon Church, underwent a last minute edit before its public release on April 8, 2019. The publisher, Deseret Book, became aware that the book contained a faith promoting story with material inaccuracies.The story was subsequently removed and the book reprinted in time for its scheduled release.

Excerpts from the book, titled Insights from a Prophet’s Life: President Russell M. Nelson, authored by Sheri Dew, were published in an article found in the March/April 2019 issue of LDS Living magazine.

One excerpt, titled, “You Didn’t Read it, Did You?”, tells the story of a young Nelson who was serving as a surgeon in Korea during the Korean War. While serving, he discussed the Book of Mormon with a nurse on staff, Beverly Ashcraft. He gave her copy of the book only for it to be returned a few days later by her husband, Derwin, a fellow surgeon at the base. Derwin did not express much interest in learning more about the book.

According to the story, Nelson pressed and convinced the Ashcrafts to read the entire book. The couple was eventually baptized by Nelson. Derwin died a few years later and Beverley remarried.

Apparently, sometime shortly after Nelson became an Apostle in 1984, he spoke at a Stake Conference in Tennessee. While at this Stake Conference, Nelson was drawn to a woman he saw in the crowd wearing a hat. While he was giving his talk from the pulpit he called her out in the crowd and asked how long she had been a member and who baptized her. She responded that he baptized her in 1951. The woman was Beverly.

The story goes on to describe how Nelson asked Beverly, ”How many people connected with you have come into the Church since I baptized you?” Astonished, she revealed a dream she had the night before in which someone at the conference asked her that very question. Because of the dream she came prepared with a piece of paper in her purse with the answer to the question.

According to Leslie and Katie McKenzie, daughter and granddaughter of Derwin and Beverley (whose name is spelled wrong in the LDS Living article), that is not what happened.

In a phone interview with Truth & Transparency, Leslie and Katie, told the real story behind their mother and grandmother’s conversion, a conversion story that has been a source of pride in their family for nearly seven decades.

Leslie and Katie say that their family have always been proud that their first exposure to Mormonism was through Nelson, the man who would later become President of the Church. They saw him as a spiritual giant, great leader, and the man that changed the legacy of their family forever.

They were aware that Nelson occasionally used the story of Derwin and Beverley as a faith promoting example of missionary work. The story even appeared in a 1984 Ensign article and in Nelson’s biography on LDS.org. However, in these versions, there is no mention of Korea, Beverley being a nurse, or a serendipitous encounter at a stake conference in Tennessee.

According to Leslie and Katie, Beverley was never a nurse, she never lived in Korea, and she didn’t know Nelson until her husband introduced her to him.

Derwin met Nelson when the two were working at Walter Reed Army Military Medical Center in Washington D.C.. They were both doctors performing research, Derwin a veterinarian and Nelson a medical doctor. They became friends and Nelson later met Beverley who worked in the same hospital as a transcriptionist. Nelson introduced them to the Mormon Church and baptized them.

There was an encounter in the 1980s at a stake conference. Shortly after Nelson was called to be an Apostle, he traveled to Knoxville to speak at the conference. Leslie and Katie were both living with Beverley in Knoxville at the time. When they heard Nelson was coming to town they made sure to attend.

They remember that Nelson was aware of who Beverley was and knew she was in attendance. He did call her up to the podium during his talk and told everyone about her baptism story and about how there are many members of the church today as a result of her conversion.

There was no dream the night before, there was not a prepared note in her purse, and there was no confusion on the part of Nelson as to who she was. Katie adds that her grandmother ”has never worn a hat to church and did not have a hat on that day.”

Katie was first made aware of this new version of the story in early March when a family member sent her a screenshot of the article. She showed it to her mother and, when she realized that it was part of an upcoming book, immediately reached out to Deseret Book and LDS Living. She sent both companies a document with annotations pointing out the incorrect information.

Katie was eventually contacted by a representative from Deseret Book and another from LDS Living. The representative from Deseret Book thanked her for bringing this to their attention and that since it was so close to the release date they would just remove the story entirely instead of trying to fix it. The representative told Katie that this would require a reprinting of at least some of the books as the final printing process had already begun.

The representative from LDS Living told Katie that portion of the article would not appear in the online version, but did not say whether or not a retraction would be printed in the next issue.

Requests for comment from both Deseret Book and LDS Living have gone unanswered.
https://www.truthandtransparency.org/ne ... -m-nelson/
I'd say that's pretty strong evidence that Nelson is prepared to materially embellish anecdotes and, in pursuit of faith promotion/personal aggrandisement, portray as happening something "miraculous" that did not.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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The Church has updated its handbook to include the following:
“Affinity fraud occurs when a person exploits another’s trust or confidence to defraud him or her. This can happen when both people belong to the same group, such as the church,” reads the new section, which is available online, along with the entire handbook. “It can also happen by abusing a position of friendship or trust, such as a church calling or family relationship.”

This kind of fraud is usually done “for financial gain,” the handbook says. It “is a shameful betrayal of trust and confidence. Its perpetrators may be subject to criminal prosecution.”
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/04 ... t-leaders/

I would suggest that telling faith promoting anecdotes that aren't true in order to convince members and investigators that the Church has something special, and to pay their tithing, counts as affinity fraud.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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When was the first time Nelson told this plane story? Was it after being called as apostle in 1984?
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Gabriel wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:24 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:27 am
I’ve watched too many people misjudge the actions or motives of others because they were sure they “knew” what some other person would have done, when what they were really doing was making unfounded assumptions.
I disagree that Russell Nelson qualifies as just some other person.
I don't "know" what Nelson would have done. I don't "know" his motives.
We simply have his words and varying stories that, as yet, for a couple score decades now have no corroborating evidence. If his story is factual, something will probably pop up. If it's not, there will never be evidence to confirm it and you will still be free to continue your line of argument as long as you wish and chide everyone for not giving the poor man the benefit of the doubt.
I’m sorry that I wasn’t clearer. The someone else I was referring to was the editor(s) of the local papers.

Also, I don’t consider Nelson a “poor man.” And my argument has nothing to do with benefit of the doubt. It has everything to do with trying to figure out what happened.

This is what my own career experience in trying to figure out what happened from evidence has taught me: any argument based on what I think someone else would do is a red flag. It doesn’t mean I’m necessarily wrong, but that I need to carefully scrutinize why I believe that. And if the reason isn’t based in some fact or evidence, there’s a very good chance my assumption is wrong.

Here’s a simple version as an illustration. I was hired to give advice on a theft claim. Among the items that were stolen was 30k in cash hidden under a floorboard. The claim rep has taken the position that the claim that 10k was stolen was fraudulent. Legally, if the insured was lying about the cash, there was no coverage for any of the items.

When I talked with the claim rep, the sole reason for her claim that the 30k was stolen was “nobody keeps that kind of cash in their house.”

When I read the claim file, I learned that the insured was a refugee from another country. I did some poking around and learned that refugees from that country tended not to trust banks and that it was common for them to keep large amounts of cash hidden in their homes.

So, ask yourself. Did the claim rep have a reasonable basis for concluding that the theft of cash didn’t occur? (Reasonable basis is the requirement for claim denial under my state’s law.)

What the Claim rep did was assume that she knew how the insured would act. It’s a form of the logical fallacy of reasoning from personal incredulity — It strains credulity to believe that anyone would keep 30k hidden in their house.

Part of DrW’s evidence is that he couldn’t find any contemporaneous reference to the accident in a Google search. Now, there was no Google or internet in 1976. So, Dr W is making an assumption that someone would have taken whatever action is required to make the information accessible in a Google search. That trips my red flag: think about whether that’s a reasonable assumption.

So, let’s try and test it. Run a Google search on Nelson’s name for news. What’s the date of the earliest item one can find? Run a general search that includes the relevant dates. How many contemporaneous references to Nelson can you find from the 1970s?

Then ask yourself: how reasonable is the assumption?

Or another: there is no record of Nelson talking about the incident until he included it in his autobiography in 1979. What’s the assumption? That Nelson would have talked about the incident in a forum and that someone else would have made a record that we can reasonably expect to find. That’s assumptions about how Nelson and a bunch of other people would have acted.

How could we test those assumptions? Well, try the Church website. In the 1970s, the main source for conference talks was the Ensign, and those are available on line. I tried to find a report of the substance of any talk Nelson gave before he was appointed to the Q12. I didn’t find any (although I’d suggest someone double check that). Apparently, General Sunday School President wasn’t important enough to get one’s talks published in the Ensign.

Then I tried newspaper.com. I searched Nelson’s name in every Utah newspaper in the database for the decade of the 1970s. I could not find a single article that reported on the substance of a talk or speech he gave, other than in the context of heart surgery.

So, if the papers during this decade didn’t report anything he said outside of his role as heart surgeon, how reasonable is it to expect to find a report of him telling this story in the papers?

Now do one for it strains credulity to believes that this incident wouldn’t have appeared in the local paper.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:17 pm
When was the first time Nelson told this plane story? Was it after being called as apostle in 1984?
I believe the first telling was in the 1979 autobiography. The first documented telling in a talk or speech that I’m aware of is the 1985 fireside. He joined the Q12 in 1984.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:58 pm
So, let’s try and test it. Run a Google search on Nelson’s name for news. What’s the date of the earliest item one can find? Run a general search that includes the relevant dates. How many contemporaneous references to Nelson can you find from the 1970s?
Why narrow a search to Nelson's name? Isn't the fact base to check more about discoverable facts vs reasonable opinions about Nelson's memory? Such as, whether or not Sky West flight 202 [or 204] on November 12, 1976 experienced an engine failure and landed in a field.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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I have collected several accounts. Obviously, some of the accounts are of lesser value (e.g., the Church News stories), and we don't have verification of the 1979 account. If anyone knows of additional accounts, I can add them.

2021: “I have had some unforgettable moments while traveling. One occurred years ago while flying to the inauguration of a university president, where I was to offer the invocation. It was a short flight in a small, two-engine plane. We were halfway to our destination, when the right engine suddenly exploded, spewing flaming fuel all over the right side of the plane. The plane was on fire, careening to the earth in a spiral dive. I expected to die. Miraculously, the dive extinguished the fire. The pilot was able to restore power to the other engine and make a safe landing. And I actually made it to the inauguration on time. Throughout that dramatic, unexpected experience, I was surprisingly calm. My entire life flashed before me. While approaching what seemed to be certain death, I was at peace. I knew my wife and I were sealed to each other eternally, and our children were sealed to us. Thanks to the Lord, I knew we would be together again. I was at peace, ready to meet my Maker.”

Source: “The Peace and Hope of Easter: President Russell M. Nelson Palm Sunday Invitation,” 00:00:16-00:01:42, https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ion-208004.


2019a: “Speaking in Spanish, Church President Russell M. Nelson told of the time several years ago when he and others aboard a small plane survived the explosion of one of the plane’s engines, the plane’s ensuing fire and sharp nosedive toward the likely death of all aboard, and then the pilot’s miraculous emergency landing in a field after the speed of the dive extinguished the fire.

President Nelson told the Argentinian Saints of the unusual tranquility he felt as the plane spiraled toward the earth and some aboard shouted in fear of what was ahead. The source of his peace, he said, was his faith and the death-transcending power of the Christ-focused worship done in the Church’s temples. The Church teaches that these temple rites connect families together forever.

‘Part of the tranquility I felt as death approached came from my knowledge of the gospel,’ the 94-year-old prophet told the Saints gathered at Tecnópolis Arena. ‘I was falling to my death. I was surprised that I was not afraid to die, I remained calm. Why? Because I knew that my wife [Dantzel, who died in 2005] and I had married in the temple. We had been eternally sealed to each other and our 10 precious children. I realized that our marriage in the temple was more important than any other achievement of my life. Temple clothes were more important than any other uniform I had worn. The temple covenants were more important than any other commitments we had made.’”

Source: “Now Is the Time to Choose Christ, Prophet Tells Argentinian Saints,” Aug. 28, 2019, https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ntina-2019.


2019b: “While speaking to the members of the Church in Uruguay in Spanish during the devotional, President Nelson recalled a time in his life when the airplane in which he was traveling almost spiraled to the ground.

But the plane did not crash and President Nelson’s life was preserved for a season. ‘With that time, we have the privilege to work, live, love and choose,’ he said.”

Source: Sarah Jane Weaver, “‘Live, love and choose’: President Nelson looks ahead to the future of the Church in Uruguay,” Church News, Aug. 9, 2019, https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ies-156122.


2019c: “On November 12, 1976, Russell Nelson had boarded a commuter plane in Salt Lake City to fly the quick route to St. George, Utah, where he was to give the invocation at the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College.

It was a short hop of less than an hour in a small, two-engine, propeller plane. Only four passengers were on board. The pilot had just announced that they were halfway to St. George when the engine on the right wing exploded, spewing oil all over the right side of the aircraft and then bursting into flames. In an attempt to douse the flames, the pilot turned the fuel off, causing the small plane to go suddenly into a free-fall death spiral.

The woman across the aisle from Russell began to scream hysterically. But Russell felt calm. “It was the most amazing thing,” he said. ‘I thought, ‘My wife and I are sealed. Our children are sealed to us. I’ve honored my covenants. I’ll meet my ancestors and go on to a glorious resurrection.’

He was, however, impressed with how quickly and comprehensively the mind can work. ‘It’s true, your life does flash before you. I had a bright recollection and perfect remembrance of my whole life. One major thought was that all of the framed awards and honors on my wall, the various clothes I’d worn — tuxedos and uniforms and doctoral robes — didn’t mean anything. What mattered was that I had my garments on and had been faithful to the covenants I’d made in the temple. I knew I was going to die, but I knew I would be fine.’

Miraculously, the free fall extinguished the fire, and, in the nick of time, the pilot was able to start the left engine, regain control of the plane, and glide it to an emergency landing in a farmer’s field not far from Delta, Utah. Everyone walked away from the incident unharmed. Another plane was dispatched, and Russell made it to St. George in time to give the invocation.”

Source: Sheri Dew, Insights from a Prophet’s Life: Russell M. Nelson (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2019), 259-60.


2018a: “President Nelson said life has taught him that ‘the honors of men, exhilarating as they may seem at the time, fade into oblivion compared to what the Lord has in store for covenant-keeping children—the supernal gift of eternal life. That’s the greatest of all of God’s gifts.’

This came clearly into focus years ago as President Nelson was traveling with four passengers on a flight from Salt Lake City to St. George Utah; during the flight, one of the two engines exploded, sending the small plane into a downward spiral.

President Nelson said he felt strangely calm. ‘Events of my life rapidly flashed before me. I thought about all the framed degrees, awards, and honors on my office wall and the various uniforms, tuxedos, and doctoral robes that I’d worn in my life.’

In his dying moments those honors meant nothing to him. What did matter was his wife and children—to whom he was sealed in the holy temple.

‘Miraculously, the free fall extinguished the flames,’ he said.”

Source: Sarah Jane Weaver, “President Nelson Shares 5 ‘Lessons Life Has Taught Me’ with 49,000 in Safeco Field,” Church News, Sep. 16, 2018, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... d?lang=eng.


2018b: “He [Nelson] shared an experience from traveling on a small plane. One of the engines caught fire and exploded, sending the aircraft into a spiral dive. Many of the passengers began screaming in fear.

But then a miracle happened. The speed of the fall extinguished the fire and the plane was able to land safely. President Nelson said he expected to die at that moment. But he was not afraid. He remained calm.

‘I knew my wife and I had married in the temple. We were sealed to each other and to our 10 beautiful children. I realized that our temple marriage was more important than any other achievement in my life.’”

Source: Jason Swensen, “President Nelson delivers historic message to Dominican Latter-day Saints in Spanish,” Church News, Sep. 3, 2018,
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... anish-8931.


2011: “I was in a small airplane and all of the sudden the engine on the wing caught fire. It exploded and burning oil was poured all over the right side of the airplane and we started to dive toward the earth. We were spinning down to our death.

Oh, this woman across the aisle, I just was so sorry for her. She was just absolutely uncontrollably hysterical. And I was calm. I was totally calm, even though I knew I was going down to my death. I was ready to meet my Maker.

We didn't crash. We didn’t die. The spiral dive extinguished the flame. The pilot got control and started the other engine up. We made an emergency landing out in a field. But I thought, through that experience, if you've got faith, you can handle difficulties knowing that with any true perspective that all will be well.”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “Men’s Hearts Shall Fail Them,” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... 1?lang=eng; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMwKxmTLaCs.


2006: “Those who have lived to tell the tale about a brush with violent death often recount the horror of knowing they were about to die, as did a woman on a small plane with Elder Nelson several years ago. One of the engines blew up and the plane caught fire, sending it into a steep dive as they were en route from Salt Lake City to St. George.

In the few seconds that passed before the pilot was able to shut off the fuel line and extinguish the flames, Elder Nelson recalls that his entire life passed through his mind, amid the hysterical screams from the woman in the next seat. ‘I thought of the academic regalia, the tuxedos and awards banquets,’ and how insignificant it all seemed, he said, adding that an overwhelming feeling of calm came over him.

What mattered in that moment were his life choices, he said — temple ordinances he had participated in, including marriage to his wife, and the deep assurance that though she would become a widow, she would be taken care of financially and they would be reunited after death.
As it turned out, the plane made a safe, emergency landing and he would live to see his wife, Dantzel White Nelson, die first, in February 2005.”

Source: Carrie A. Moore, “Death is part of life, ex-surgeon says,” Deseret News, Apr. 15, 2006, https://www.deseret.com/2006/4/15/19948 ... rgeon-says.


2004: “Elder Nelson spoke of a harrowing trip he once made on a small airplane. One of the plane's motors exploded an hour after take-off, sending the aircraft into a spiral dive. The dive fortuitously doused the fire sparked by the explosion and the pilot was able to regain control and land the plane safely.

Elder Nelson said he had expected to die inside that distressed plane. But he had lived a life of gospel harmony and felt prepared to meet eternal life. "I was surprised that I was not afraid to die. I remained calm. Why? I knew that my wife and I had been sealed in the temple. We had been sealed eternally to each other and to our 10 precious children.’”

Source: Jason Swensen, “Gospel principles vital to correct living,” Church News, Sep. 17, 2004, https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/ ... ving-94995.


2003: “The imminent prospect of death places in bold relief the things that matter most in life. Elder Nelson related just such an experience he had November 12, 1976. ‘I was in an airplane going from Salt Lake City to St. George to participate in a function at Dixie College. We were in one of those small commuter airplanes. There were about six passengers in it. The pilot had just announced that we were over the halfway point between Salt Lake City and St. George—we were past the point of no return. I thought, 'Well, that's a weird announcement to make.'

‘Shortly after that, the engine on the right wing of the airplane burst open in flames, spewing oil all over the right side of the plane. The propeller became starkly still and the whole engine was on fire. We then went into a dive earthward. I assumed that my life was going to be terminated right then and there.

‘The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest. But the pilot had turned off the ignition that fed more gas into the fire and had purposely been in a steep dive hoping that the flames might be extinguished, which was what happened. Then, with the power still left in the other propeller—which he then turned on just as we were about ready to have our moment of impact—he was able to glide us, following a highway, until we could make an emergency landing.’

"I'm pleased to report that I was really prepared. I knew I was facing death and I was calm. I knew that the most important thing I had ever done was to marry Dantzel White in the temple on August 31—that all of the children that have come into our home were born in the covenant—all faithful; and I was ready to die.’2 [2. Russell M. Nelson, “A Call to Serve,” address at the University of Utah Salt Lake Institute of Religion, 1 [sic] March 1985.].”

Source: Spencer J. Condie, Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2003).


1995: “I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two-propeller airplane. One of the engines suddenly burst open and caught on fire. The propeller of the flaming engine was starkly stilled. As we plummeted in a steep spiral dive toward the earth, I expected to die. Some of the passengers screamed in hysterical panic. Miraculously, the precipitous dive extinguished the flames. Then, by starting up the other engine, the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely.

Throughout that ordeal, though I felt that sudden death was coming, my paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die. I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done temple work. I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children born and reared in the covenant. I realized that our marriage in the temple was our most important accomplishment. Honors bestowed upon me by men could not begin to approach the inner peace provided by sealings performed in the House of the Lord.1 [1. This experience was also quoted in my address at the April 5, 1992, afternoon session of general conference. See "Doors of Death," Ensign, May 1992, pp. 72-74].”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, The Gateway We Call Death (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1995).


1992: “I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two-propeller airplane. One of its engines suddenly burst open and caught on fire. The propeller of the flaming engine was starkly stilled. As we plummeted in a steep spiral dive toward the earth, I expected to die. Some of the passengers screamed in hysterical panic. Miraculously, the precipitous dive extinguished the flames. Then, by starting up the other engine, the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely.

Throughout that ordeal, though I ‘knew’ death was coming, my paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die. I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done temple work. I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children, born and reared in the covenant. I realized that our marriage in the temple was my most important accomplishment. Honors bestowed upon me by men could not approach the inner peace provided by sealings performed in the house of the Lord.

That harrowing experience consumed but a few minutes, yet my entire life flashed before my mind. Having had such rapid recall when facing death, I do not doubt the scriptural promise of ‘perfect remembrance’ when facing judgment. (Alma 5:18; see also Alma 11:43.)”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “Doors of Death,” General Conference, April 1992, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng; see also Russell M. Nelson, "Most Important," Friend, June 1994, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng.


1985: “I was in an airplane going from Salt Lake City to St. George to participate in a function at Dixie College. We were in one of those small commuter airplanes. There were about six passengers in it. The pilot had just announced that we were over the halfway point between Salt Lake and St. George—we were past the point of no return. I thought, 'Well, that's a weird announcement to make.' Shortly after that, the engine on the right wing of the airplane burst open in flames, spewing oil all over the right side of the plane. The propeller became starkly still and the whole engine was on fire. We then went into a dive earthward. I knew that my life was going to be terminated right then and there. I'm pleased to report that I was really prepared. I knew I was facing death and I was calm. I knew that the most important thing I had ever done was to marry Dantzel White in the temple on August 31—that each of the children that have come into our home were born in the covenant—all faithful, many of them married in the temple; and I was ready to die. The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest. But the pilot had turned off the ignition that fed more gas into the fire and had purposely been in a steep dive hoping that the flames might be extinguished, which was what happened. Then, with the power still left in the other propeller—which he then turned on just as we were about ready to have our moment of impact—he was able to glide us, following a highway, until we could make an emergency landing. I was well rehearsed for my reply to the First Presidency because I had literally faced death and was able to say, 'Yes, I'm ready for whatever the Lord would have me do.'"

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “A Call to Serve,” Fireside, March 31, 1985, Salt Lake Institute of Religion Devotional and Fireside Speeches (Salt Lake City: Salt Lake Institute of Religion), 5.


1979: “The final nudge came as I was a passenger in a small airplane plummeting earthward with one of its two engines exploded. I realized then although the spiritual and material needs for my family had been provided, I had not left for them a reasonable recapitulation of my life that they could review. The safe emergency landing of that disabled aircraft provided me with the change I needed" (ix).

"Moreover, my experiences on the front line of artillery action and under sniper fire by guerillas in Korea, in a crippled airplane with an exploded engine as it plummeted earthward, in the grip of thundering rapids on the relentless Colorado River, submerged while wearing high waders in the Snake River — all these episodes, any one of which could have ended fatally, combine to make my statement of gratitude to God for life, health, and strength a most sincere one" (305).

"November 12 - Flew to St. George. When one of the small airplane's engines exploded, I expected to be killed. But after a precipitous dive in the disabled plane, the pilot made a safe emergency landing in Delta. I was going to St. George to give the opening prayer at the inaugural services at which Rolfe Kerr became president of Dixie College" (376-77).

Source: Russell M. Nelson, From Heart to Heart: An Autobiography (Salt Lake City: Nelson, 1979) (quotations kindly provided by Gabriel here).
Last edited by Tom on Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Res Ipsa »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:09 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:58 pm
So, let’s try and test it. Run a Google search on Nelson’s name for news. What’s the date of the earliest item one can find? Run a general search that includes the relevant dates. How many contemporaneous references to Nelson can you find from the 1970s?
Why narrow a search to Nelson's name? Isn't the fact base to check more about discoverable facts vs reasonable opinions about Nelson's memory? Such as, whether or not Sky West flight 202 [or 204] on November 12, 1976 experienced an engine failure and landed in a field.
Because I'm not trying to answer the question "is the information available through Google?" I'm testing the assumption behind Dr. W's claim that googling Nelson's name and accident (or similar terms) doesn't result in any hits until a later dates is evidence that the story is imaginary. That assumption is that it is reasonable for me to expect that, if the story were true, I could find a contemporaneous account via a Google search. Nelson was in the Utah papers for a number of things during the 1970s. Can I find those by googling his name? If I can't find anything from the 1970s about Nelson, then the more reasonable conclusion is that Google's database for news doesn't include utah papers from the 1970s. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless one has a reasonable expectation that the evidence should be present.

To put it in terms of Baysesian analysis: what should results of Dr W's Google search look like if the story were true and if it were false. If Google has not included information sources that would report have reported events in the 1970s, then the evidence we should expect is the same in both cases.

But that's just a test of the assumption that underlies that argument. If you want to test a different argument, devise a different test.

For example, if we want to test the assumption that the incident would have been reported in the local papers, we could try looking at the NTSB reports we have for Millard County over a period of time, then look to see which ones were reported in the papers. Were all of them? If not, is there good evidence of a rule or policy at play "all emergency landings" or "all with injuries or deaths." If we don't have a good answer for why some are included and why others are not, then there are other relevant factors at work that we simply don't know about. Are they filler when the paper is a few column inches short? Does it depend on ad volume in the issue? I dunno. That's why I'd want to try and talk to the editors about how they learned about aircraft incidents and how they decided to write them up.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Res Ipsa »

Tom wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:47 pm
I have collected several accounts. Obviously, some of the accounts are of lesser value (e.g., the Church News stories), and we don't have verification of the 1979 and 1985 accounts. If anyone knows of additional accounts, I can add them.

2021: “I have had some unforgettable moments while traveling. One occurred years ago while flying to the inauguration of a university president, where I was to offer the invocation. It was a short flight in a small, two-engine plane. We were halfway to our destination, when the right engine suddenly exploded, spewing flaming fuel all over the right side of the plane. The plane was on fire, careening to the earth in a spiral dive. I expected to die. Miraculously, the dive extinguished the fire. The pilot was able to restore power to the other engine and make a safe landing. And I actually made it to the inauguration on time. Throughout that dramatic, unexpected experience, I was surprisingly calm. My entire life flashed before me. While approaching what seemed to be certain death, I was at peace. I knew my wife and I were sealed to each other eternally, and our children were sealed to us. Thanks to the Lord, I knew we would be together again. I was at peace, ready to meet my Maker.”

Source: “The Peace and Hope of Easter: President Russell M. Nelson Palm Sunday Invitation,” 00:00:16-00:01:42, https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ion-208004.


2019a: “Speaking in Spanish, Church President Russell M. Nelson told of the time several years ago when he and others aboard a small plane survived the explosion of one of the plane’s engines, the plane’s ensuing fire and sharp nosedive toward the likely death of all aboard, and then the pilot’s miraculous emergency landing in a field after the speed of the dive extinguished the fire.

President Nelson told the Argentinian Saints of the unusual tranquility he felt as the plane spiraled toward the earth and some aboard shouted in fear of what was ahead. The source of his peace, he said, was his faith and the death-transcending power of the Christ-focused worship done in the Church’s temples. The Church teaches that these temple rites connect families together forever.

‘Part of the tranquility I felt as death approached came from my knowledge of the gospel,’ the 94-year-old prophet told the Saints gathered at Tecnópolis Arena. ‘I was falling to my death. I was surprised that I was not afraid to die, I remained calm. Why? Because I knew that my wife [Dantzel, who died in 2005] and I had married in the temple. We had been eternally sealed to each other and our 10 precious children. I realized that our marriage in the temple was more important than any other achievement of my life. Temple clothes were more important than any other uniform I had worn. The temple covenants were more important than any other commitments we had made.’”

Source: “Now Is the Time to Choose Christ, Prophet Tells Argentinian Saints,” Aug. 28, 2019, https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ntina-2019.


2019b: “While speaking to the members of the Church in Uruguay in Spanish during the devotional, President Nelson recalled a time in his life when the airplane in which he was traveling almost spiraled to the ground.

But the plane did not crash and President Nelson’s life was preserved for a season. ‘With that time, we have the privilege to work, live, love and choose,’ he said.”

Source: Sarah Jane Weaver, “‘Live, love and choose’: President Nelson looks ahead to the future of the Church in Uruguay,” Church News, Aug. 9, 2019, https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ies-156122.


2019c: “On November 12, 1976, Russell Nelson had boarded a commuter plane in Salt Lake City to fly the quick route to St. George, Utah, where he was to give the invocation at the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College.

It was a short hop of less than an hour in a small, two-engine propeller plane. Only four passengers were on board. The pilot had just announced that they were halfway to St. George when the engine on the right wing exploded, spewing oil all over the right side of the aircraft and then bursting into flames. In an attempt to douse the flames, the pilot turned the fuel off, causing the small plane to go suddenly into a free fall death spiral.

The woman across the aisle from Russell began to scream hysterically. But Russell felt calm. “It was the most amazing thing,” he said. ‘I thought, ‘My wife and I are sealed. Our children are sealed to us. I’ve honored my covenants. I’ll meet my ancestors and go on to a glorious resurrection.’
He was, however, impressed with how quickly and comprehensively the mind can work. ‘It’s true, your life does flash before you. I had a bright recollection and perfect remembrance of my whole life. One major thought was that all of the framed awards and honors on my wall, the various clothes I’d worn — tuxedos and uniforms and doctoral robes — didn’t mean anything. What mattered was that I had my garments on and had been faithful to the covenants I’d made in the temple. I knew I was going to die, but I knew I would be fine.’

Miraculously, the free fall extinguished the fire, and, in the nick of time, the pilot was able to start the left engine, regain control of the plane, and guide it to an emergency landing in a farmer’s field not far from Delta, Utah. Everyone walked away from the incident unharmed. Another plane was dispatched, and Russell made it to St. George in time to give the invocation.”

Source: Sheri Dew, Insights from a Prophet’s Life: Russell M. Nelson (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2019).


2018a: “President Nelson said life has taught him that ‘the honors of men, exhilarating as they may seem at the time, fade into oblivion compared to what the Lord has in store for covenant-keeping children—the supernal gift of eternal life. That’s the greatest of all of God’s gifts.’

This came clearly into focus years ago as President Nelson was traveling with four passengers on a flight from Salt Lake City to St. George Utah; during the flight, one of the two engines exploded, sending the small plane into a downward spiral.

President Nelson said he felt strangely calm. ‘Events of my life rapidly flashed before me. I thought about all the framed degrees, awards, and honors on my office wall and the various uniforms, tuxedos, and doctoral robes that I’d worn in my life.’

In his dying moments those honors meant nothing to him. What did matter was his wife and children—to whom he was sealed in the holy temple.

‘Miraculously, the free fall extinguished the flames,’ he said.”

Source: Sarah Jane Weaver, “President Nelson Shares 5 ‘Lessons Life Has Taught Me’ with 49,000 in Safeco Field,” Church News, Sep. 16, 2018, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... d?lang=eng.


2018b: “He [Nelson] shared an experience from traveling on a small plane. One of the engines caught fire and exploded, sending the aircraft into a spiral dive. Many of the passengers began screaming in fear.

But then a miracle happened. The speed of the fall extinguished the fire and the plane was able to land safely. President Nelson said he expected to die at that moment. But he was not afraid. He remained calm.

‘I knew my wife and I had married in the temple. We were sealed to each other and to our 10 beautiful children. I realized that our temple marriage was more important than any other achievement in my life.’”

Source: Jason Swensen, “President Nelson delivers historic message to Dominican Latter-day Saints in Spanish,” Church News, Sep. 3, 2018,
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... anish-8931.


2011: “I was in a small airplane and all of the sudden the engine on the wing caught fire. It exploded and burning oil was poured all over the right side of the airplane and we started to dive toward the earth. We were spinning down to our death.

Oh, this woman across the aisle, I just was so sorry for her. She was just absolutely uncontrollably hysterical. And I was calm. I was totally calm, even though I knew I was going down to my death. I was ready to meet my Maker.

We didn't crash. We didn’t die. The spiral dive extinguished the flame. The pilot got control and started the other engine up. We made an emergency landing out in a field. But I thought, through that experience, if you've got faith, you can handle difficulties knowing that with any true perspective that all will be well.”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “Men’s Hearts Shall Fail Them,” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... 1?lang=eng; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMwKxmTLaCs.


2006: “Those who have lived to tell the tale about a brush with violent death often recount the horror of knowing they were about to die, as did a woman on a small plane with Elder Nelson several years ago. One of the engines blew up and the plane caught fire, sending it into a steep dive as they were en route from Salt Lake City to St. George.

In the few seconds that passed before the pilot was able to shut off the fuel line and extinguish the flames, Elder Nelson recalls that his entire life passed through his mind, amid the hysterical screams from the woman in the next seat. ‘I thought of the academic regalia, the tuxedos and awards banquets,’ and how insignificant it all seemed, he said, adding that an overwhelming feeling of calm came over him.

What mattered in that moment were his life choices, he said — temple ordinances he had participated in, including marriage to his wife, and the deep assurance that though she would become a widow, she would be taken care of financially and they would be reunited after death.
As it turned out, the plane made a safe, emergency landing and he would live to see his wife, Dantzel White Nelson, die first, in February 2005.”

Source: Carrie A. Moore, “Death is part of life, ex-surgeon says,” Deseret News, Apr. 15, 2006, https://www.deseret.com/2006/4/15/19948 ... rgeon-says.


2004: “Elder Nelson spoke of a harrowing trip he once made on a small airplane. One of the plane's motors exploded an hour after take-off, sending the aircraft into a spiral dive. The dive fortuitously doused the fire sparked by the explosion and the pilot was able to regain control and land the plane safely.

Elder Nelson said he had expected to die inside that distressed plane. But he had lived a life of gospel harmony and felt prepared to meet eternal life. "I was surprised that I was not afraid to die. I remained calm. Why? I knew that my wife and I had been sealed in the temple. We had been sealed eternally to each other and to our 10 precious children.’”

Source: Jason Swensen, “Gospel principles vital to correct living,” Church News, Sep. 17, 2004, https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/ ... ving-94995.


2003: “The imminent prospect of death places in bold relief the things that matter most in life. Elder Nelson related just such an experience he had November 12, 1976. ‘I was in an airplane going from Salt Lake City to St. George to participate in a function at Dixie College. We were in one of those small commuter airplanes. There were about six passengers in it. The pilot had just announced that we were over the halfway point between Salt Lake City and St. George—we were past the point of no return. I thought, 'Well, that's a weird announcement to make.'

‘Shortly after that, the engine on the right wing of the airplane burst open in flames, spewing oil all over the right side of the plane. The propeller became starkly still and the whole engine was on fire. We then went into a dive earthward. I assumed that my life was going to be terminated right then and there.

‘The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest. But the pilot had turned off the ignition that fed more gas into the fire and had purposely been in a steep dive hoping that the flames might be extinguished, which was what happened. Then, with the power still left in the other propeller—which he then turned on just as we were about ready to have our moment of impact—he was able to glide us, following a highway, until we could make an emergency landing.’

"I'm pleased to report that I was really prepared. I knew I was facing death and I was calm. I knew that the most important thing I had ever done was to marry Dantzel White in the temple on August 31—that all of the children that have come into our home were born in the covenant—all faithful; and I was ready to die.’2 [2. Russell M. Nelson, “A Call to Serve,” address at the University of Utah Salt Lake Institute of Religion, 1 [sic] March 1985.].”

Source: Spencer J. Condie, Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2003).


1995: “I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two-propeller airplane. One of the engines suddenly burst open and caught on fire. The propeller of the flaming engine was starkly stilled. As we plummeted in a steep spiral dive toward the earth, I expected to die. Some of the passengers screamed in hysterical panic. Miraculously, the precipitous dive extinguished the flames. Then, by starting up the other engine, the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely.

Throughout that ordeal, though I felt that sudden death was coming, my paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die. I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done temple work. I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children born and reared in the covenant. I realized that our marriage in the temple was our most important accomplishment. Honors bestowed upon me by men could not begin to approach the inner peace provided by sealings performed in the House of the Lord.1 [1. This experience was also quoted in my address at the April 5, 1992, afternoon session of general conference. See "Doors of Death," Ensign, May 1992, pp. 72-74].”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, The Gateway We Call Death (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1995).


1992: “I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two-propeller airplane. One of its engines suddenly burst open and caught on fire. The propeller of the flaming engine was starkly stilled. As we plummeted in a steep spiral dive toward the earth, I expected to die. Some of the passengers screamed in hysterical panic. Miraculously, the precipitous dive extinguished the flames. Then, by starting up the other engine, the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely.

Throughout that ordeal, though I ‘knew’ death was coming, my paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die. I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done temple work. I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children, born and reared in the covenant. I realized that our marriage in the temple was my most important accomplishment. Honors bestowed upon me by men could not approach the inner peace provided by sealings performed in the house of the Lord.

That harrowing experience consumed but a few minutes, yet my entire life flashed before my mind. Having had such rapid recall when facing death, I do not doubt the scriptural promise of ‘perfect remembrance’ when facing judgment. (Alma 5:18; see also Alma 11:43.)”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “Doors of Death,” General Conference, April 1992, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng; see also Russell M. Nelson, "Most Important," Friend, June 1994, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng.


1985: “I was in an airplane going from Salt Lake City to St. George to participate in a function at Dixie College. We were in one of those small commuter airplanes. There were about six passengers in it. The pilot had just announced that we were over the halfway point between Salt Lake City and St. George—we were past the point of no return. I thought, 'Well, that's a weird announcement to make.'

"Shortly after that, the engine on the right wing of the airplane burst open in flames, spewing oil all over the right side of the plane. The propeller became starkly still and the whole engine was on fire. We then went into a dive earthward. I assumed that my life was going to be terminated right then and there.

"The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest. But the pilot had turned off the ignition that fed more gas into the fire and had purposely been in a steep dive hoping that the flames might be extinguished, which was what happened. Then, with the power still left in the other propeller—which he then turned on just as we were about ready to have our moment of impact—he was able to glide us, following a highway, until we could make an emergency landing.’

"I'm pleased to report that I was really prepared. I knew I was facing death and I was calm. I knew that the most important thing I had ever done was to marry Dantzel White in the temple on August 31—that all of the children that have come into our home were born in the covenant—all faithful; and I was ready to die" (as quoted in Condie, Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle; note: text needs to be checked against Russell M. Nelson, “A Call to Serve,” address at the University of Utah Salt Lake Institute of Religion, March 31, 1985).


1979: “The final nudge came as I was a passenger in a small airplane plummeting earthward with one of its two engines exploded. I realized then although the spiritual and material needs for my family had been provided, I had not left for them a reasonable recapitulation of my life that they could review. The safe emergency landing of that disabled aircraft provided me with the change I needed.”

Purported source: Russell M. Nelson, From Heart to Heart: An Autobiography (Salt Lake City: Nelson, 1979) (note: website quotation should be checked against original; original should be checked for any other references to incident).
Tom, thanks so much for doing this. I'm swamped today with work, but I'll certainly look it over later.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by DrW »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:35 pm
To put it in terms of Baysesian analysis: what should results of Dr W's Google search look like if the story were true and if it were false. If Google has not included information sources that would report have reported events in the 1970s, then the evidence we should expect is the same in both cases.
The internet search with that particular string was intended as an example only. I should have stated that explicitly, although it should have been clear in the context of the post. As everyone knows, to make a Bayesian estimate of the probabilities, one should attempt to categorize and consider all relevant information available, including the assertions of Nelson and his associates. Otherwise you would be right - GIGO. Bayesian reasoning is somewhat subjective anyway. The advantage is that you can quickly update your probability estimates when new information becomes available.

That's why I suggested looking for the pilot and/or aircraft logbooks. The Pilot's Logbooks are almost certainly out there, even if the pilot is retired or passed away. If found, these could greatly help Nelson's case. In fact, if found intact, they could well contain incontrovertible evidence. (Case closed you might say - or not.)

I still have all of mine, starting from February 1st, 1971. I can tell you when I flew, what I flew, where I went, visibility (VFR / IFR / Night), hours logged, and any unusual events, for every flight as a pilot over the last 50 years or so. One of my kids will probably have them after I die. The contents are prompts for some great family stories.
__________________________________________________

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If any of you lacks sufficient information for a decision,
Let him ask of the Reverend Bayes who, with the math of LaPlace,
Shall giveth unto him an equation,
From which a pretty good estimate of probability shall cometh
.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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